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Value (purchase price) of Catalina 25

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ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/15/2017 : 08:31:03

I will be looking at a Catalina 25 that is for sale on my local lake in central Ohio and am trying to determine what the value is on the boat, as I feel the asking price is a tad high (9,500). I still need to actually look at the boat, but here is the information I have gathered:
- 1983 Fin Keel, Tall Mast
- Trailer included
- 1990s model Mariner 9.9 outboard included
- "Like New" Main and 110% Jib, also includes 150% genoa
- Self tailing winches
- Raymarine ST60+ Tridata
- Hatch Screens
- Other misc. boating equipment included.

Seller indicates there are no soft spots on the deck, no issues with blisters, etc. below the waterline, no water intrusion with exception of window seals. I have confirmed this with my local sailboat shop who assists the seller with maintenance and launching.

My problem is trying to determine value. Around here, not many Catalina 25s sell, and a fixed keel/tall rig combo are almost unheard of. Most comparable sale I have is a 1986 Swing keel that sold last year that was listed for $7,500 (also on my local lake). Also included a trailer, 9.9 Tohatsu, furler, spinnaker, other misc. bells and whistles. Very limited information, but would anyone have input to value if the boat is in "sail away" condition? Is there usually a premium on the fin keel/tall rig combo? Appears prices in central Ohio vary greatly from the prices up on Erie, so I am trying to not use those as comps.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Kim Luckner
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 11:11:37

You could try this site, http://www.nadaguides.com/Boats/Sailboats. When I input my boat's particulars it seemed a little high but maybe useful for insurance value.

Seeadler
'79 C25 SR/FK #1432
Mentor Lagoons

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 12:21:24

Well, "what's it worth?" is, IMO, the wrong question. I sold my '85 Tall Rig / Fin keel / trailer / race sail kit last month. I thought it was "worth" 10 or 12k.

The real questions is: "what will a buyer pay for it?" or "how low am I willing to part with it for?" In my case, that was considerably less than what I thought it was worth.

Matt

former Captain of Heartbeat
Catalina 25 Tall
#4816

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 13:45:07

I tried the NADA value and it came back at $8,500. I know when I price my Cat 22 via NADA, it is without a doubt higher than I could get.

Heartbeat, that is my issue of what I am trying to spend. There are a few Cat 25s (one a FK Tall) that are priced at $10K and have been priced at $10K for five years here. To me, that says $10K is too much....

I'm thinking of coming in with an opening offer between $7-8K if the boat is what I think it is. Doesn't seem too off base and is around 75% of asking price, which in my book, doesn't seem to bad.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 14:44:46

It would have to be a spectacular boat to be worth 10K. I think your offer is reasonable for a nice boat.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 15:15:30

34 years, no furler, a 20-something year-old 2-stroke outboard... Sounds sorta like $7K--until you get to the trailer. Depending on its condition (roadworthy or just usable as a cradle) and whether you care about having a trailer (and have the tow vehicle), that could add up to another K. But used boat markets are generally local, and the buyers generally rule. The exception is the '89-91 wing keel C-25. People travel for them.

Are you in a location where you could get a knowledgeable pre-purchase survey done? Even in that price range, $3-400 can be a good investment in deciding a fair price based on condition, knowing what you'll need to spend next (a prioritized list), or even finding out you should walk away. You can attend the survey, ask questions, and learn some things. (A deck may not feel soft, but might have rot going on in the core anyway.) And many insurers require a survey of a boat over some particular age--you might as well benefit from it in the purchase. (A quick lookup on marinesurvey.org turned up a guy in Lancaster.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/15/2017 15:29:23

C25BC
Navigator

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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 15:19:37

Guess I paid too much

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 17:46:10

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

34 years, no furler, a 20-something year-old 2-stroke outboard... Sounds sorta like $7K--until you get to the trailer. Depending on its condition (roadworthy or just usable as a cradle) and whether you care about having a trailer (and have the tow vehicle), that could add up to another K. But used boat markets are generally local, and the buyers generally rule. The exception is the '89-91 wing keel C-25. People travel for them.

Are you in a location where you could get a knowledgeable pre-purchase survey done? Even in that price range, $3-400 can be a good investment in deciding a fair price based on condition, knowing what you'll need to spend next (a prioritized list), or even finding out you should walk away. You can attend the survey, ask questions, and learn some things. (A deck may not feel soft, but might have rot going on in the core anyway.) And many insurers require a survey of a boat over some particular age--you might as well benefit from it in the purchase. (A quick lookup on marinesurvey.org turned up a guy in Lancaster.)

Great, at least I know I'm not too off base with price. Trailer wise, I need it to make a 70 mile or so round trip once a year. Don't really plan to attempt any "trailer sailing" or plans to make big trips to the Great Lakes or anything.

As far as a survey, there is nobody I could locate where I am (Cincinnati) that does a survey on sailboats. The boat has been owned by the same owner since 1992 and serviced/maintained by my local sailboat shop. The guys at the sailboat shop have worked on the boat since it was acquired and I consider those guys personal friends as well. So I am relying on their appraisal of the condition, in addition to mine. They indicated it is one of the better older Cat 25s out there.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 18:10:45

quote:
Originally posted by C25BC

Guess I paid too much

Hah! But here's the thing: There are boats and then there are boats. A C-25 can be turned into as pretty and capable a coastal cruiser as any 25-footer you can buy new today (probably prettier!)--which might suggest that with some effort, it could be made into a $30-40K vessel. Trouble is, nobody will pay that for an "old" 25' Catalina. And the buyers determine the price. On the flip-side, almost any 30+ year old boat could be something that for a reasonable amount of effort and money can no longer be made seaworthy or marketable at a fraction of the price that would recover the costs. At that point, even scrapping the boat becomes a major (and likely costly) effort.

There are many examples of the middle ground, like the C-25 we bought... The condition was "OK" (sailable and sound), and with some "significant" (to us) expenditures, we improved her to "nice". After seven years of pleasure, I sold her (quickly) for a "majority" of the total we had invested from the beginning--but for very slightly less than we initially paid for her. That was the market. I mark up the "loss" to the enjoyment we had from a boat that was better when we sold her than when we bought her.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 18:20:37

quote:
Originally posted by ryank020

...As far as a survey, there is nobody I could locate where I am (Cincinnati) that does a survey on sailboats. The boat has been owned by the same owner since 1992 and serviced/maintained by my local sailboat shop. The guys at the sailboat shop have worked on the boat since it was acquired and I consider those guys personal friends as well. So I am relying on their appraisal of the condition, in addition to mine. They indicated it is one of the better older Cat 25s out there.

Sounds good. (You faked me out by the "local lake in central Ohio" comment--I have a different recollection regarding Cincinnati.)

Good luck in your negotiation!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 18:58:17

quote:
(You faked me out by the "local lake in central Ohio" comment--I have a different recollection regarding Cincinnati.)

I could clarify...I'm in Cincinnati. My "local" sailing lake is about 60 miles east in rural south central Ohio.

Changing topic a bit, I see you have a FK. What is your opinion on its sailing characteristics to a SK? I quite frankly want to move away from SK maintenance, but thats about my only reason to change. My boat stays in the same slip from April to November.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2017 : 19:24:37

Another spin on this . . . . the boat may be in pristine condition with a road worthy trailer to boot. But . . . . my guess (and it is only a guess) based on having lived a while near Lima . . . . is that in central Ohio there is not much of a market for a fin keel 25 foot boat. The swing keel variation, in similar condition, most likely would command the higher price. Out here on the east coast where a fin or wing keel is preferred, there are many C-25's in excellent condition going for @$4-5k. As has been pointed out, it is a buyers market and when someone decides it is time to sell, they often drop the price ( or take a low-ball offer) for a quick sale so they can stop the maintenance costs. Then again, many people put their "pride and joy"on the market at a high price with the intent that if someone bites, they will sell, but if not,they will keep sailing. The key question for your friends who have maintained the boat is: is the seller really serious in selling or just testing the market!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2017 : 05:04:59

I don't trust anything about the NADA guides. They give me an average retail of $11k for my boat in the area without really knowing whats been done or upgraded. I think that I would struggle to sell my boat for any more than $7-8k based on the market even with almost everything except the hull replaced.

Shopping around on Craigslist you can always see 3 types of boats/owners. People that need to get rid of a boat, People that understand the general value of what someone is will to pay for a boat, and people that have no idea what they're talking about.

I think if the boat you are looking at is perfect for your plans then what are you willing to pay and when are you willing to walk. If you think the boat is in high-demand based on your locale and market and its the right boat, pull the trigger. If you think you can get a deal, go for it by all means.

Boats in general are great for buyers and tough for sellers. They incur costs daily and ROI is minimal for all work and parts so generally people need to get rid of them quickly creating a buyers market. That along with the fact that they are toys for those that have extra money to pay for them.

If you're lake sailing, that tall rig will be helpful. Not sure about if the draft works in your favor. Really though, i'd love to trade my swing-keel, standard rig for a fixed-keel tall rig.

Remember that the cheapest thing about a boat is buying it so buy the best boat you can and save your headaches, time and just go sailing. Fixing a boat up is fun, but sailing is more fun.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2017 : 06:36:33

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

Another spin on this . . . . the boat may be in pristine condition with a road worthy trailer to boot. But . . . . my guess (and it is only a guess) based on having lived a while near Lima . . . . is that in central Ohio there is not much of a market for a fin keel 25 foot boat. The swing keel variation, in similar condition, most likely would command the higher price. Out here on the east coast where a fin or wing keel is preferred, there are many C-25's in excellent condition going for @$4-5k. As has been pointed out, it is a buyers market and when someone decides it is time to sell, they often drop the price ( or take a low-ball offer) for a quick sale so they can stop the maintenance costs. Then again, many people put their "pride and joy"on the market at a high price with the intent that if someone bites, they will sell, but if not,they will keep sailing. The key question for your friends who have maintained the boat is: is the seller really serious in selling or just testing the market!

Thanks for the input! I grew up in Lima, so I know those lakes pretty well and agree SK is a huge advantage there with the shallow lakes and all the associated stumps (Indian Lake and Grand Lake). Where I sail (Rocky Fork), we average probably 15-20 feet. The only time my Cat 22 has the keel raised/lowered is to get on/off the trailer. So from a perspective of the boat being in a slip, no depth issues, and SK maintenance, FK sounds ideal to me.

I certainly hope the seller is serious! The only "listing" was an email to our sailing club. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an emotional attachment, but I hope I can convince him with the care I would take care of the boat (I'm pretty meticulous on maintenance) and allow my family to grow on the boat. We shall see. I'm having a tough time with the idea of separating with my 22 I've only had for 3 years!

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2017 : 06:39:06

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBuoy

Remember that the cheapest thing about a boat is buying it so buy the best boat you can and save your headaches, time and just go sailing. Fixing a boat up is fun, but sailing is more fun.

Without a doubt! I have too much time/money in my current boat that was a little neglected. I'm ready for a sail-away boat. I'm willing to pay what I need to pay for a "good" boat that I don't have to do any substantial improvements to.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2017 : 07:28:17

quote:
Originally posted by ryank020

Changing topic a bit, I see you have a FK. What is your opinion on its sailing characteristics to a SK? I quite frankly want to move away from SK maintenance, but thats about my only reason to change. My boat stays in the same slip from April to November.

There's an example of the regional differences mentioned above... Swing keel maintenance is a bigger issue in salt water--in fact I recall reading a statement by Catalina--maybe in their owners' manual--that they didn't recommend it for salt water. (Many C-25 SKs have lived on the coasts--a few have had serious problems due to maintenance procrastination.)

I had a fin (am now a P.O.) All that I've read suggests the swinger might have a tiny advantage head-to-head, with its deeper draft, shorter cord-length, and weight difference of about 400 lbs (on a longer lever-arm). But whatever that advantage might have been, I wouldn't have bought one. And here on the coast, I suspect the fin will get a higher price than the swing. (Note that Catalina introduced a very shallow-draft wing around 1987, and discontinued the swing after 1988. They also made the wing available as a retrofit kit for swing owners. It fit up into the keel trunk.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/16/2017 07:31:26

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2017 : 21:14:56

I think it would take some pretty awesome sailors to exploit the advantages of one over the other head to head. The shape and and deeper CM of the swinger is an advantage, but the turbulence of the slot is a negative. The higher CM of the fin and greater wetted surface is probably somewhat offset by greater lift to windward. I thought Rocky Fork might be a nice sailing lake, but it would take almost as long for me to get there as Lake Erie.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2017 : 07:24:32

quote:
Originally posted by Dave5041

I thought Rocky Fork might be a nice sailing lake, but it would take almost as long for me to get there as Lake Erie.

Rocky is beautiful, but has some draw-backs (i.e. amenities at the dock, constantly shifting winds). I'm probably about an hour too far south to make the drive to Erie. If I was in Dayton or north, Erie would probably be my choice. There are actually quite a few sailors down here in Cincinnati that will make the trek up.

I did get a chance to check out and sail the boat yesterday. Interior is in very good shape. Interior teak looks great, no signs of moister in the cabin (i.e. in bulkheads). All compartments that have access to the bilge were 100% dry and clean. Deck was sound with no soft spots. Sails are like new Rolly Tasker (main and 110%). Deck and hull needs some work to get oxidation off, but cosmetic only. Has whisker pole, whisker pole track on main, one reef point in main, all lines are ran to cockpit. Probably need to slowly work on replacing running rigging. Certainly a nice boat, now just need to figure out an offer price!

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2017 : 11:06:55

Not sure how your state taxes work in your case but I saved a good chunk of change by purchasing the boat separately from all of the additional paraphernalia that come with it such as the spare anchor, PFDs, cushions , sails, covers, pumps, gas tank, etc. When I did the math for the bill of sale, we estimated the boat at 3/4 and gear at 1/4 of the combined cost, so with a 6% motor vehicle tax, I saved enough for a nice handheld GPS. I would not call this creative accounting, instead GAAP.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2017 : 19:08:47

I sold my 1983 25' cat sw keel to the marina for $2000.00 . No Trailer no motor , roller furler , in deceent sailing shape . no upgrades . The boat did sit unused for 10 years before I bought it . The boat was still at the marina last fall . I Think the asking price is way too high . Harbor North Marina , South Chesapeake City , Md at the very top of the Chesapeake Bay ( A very barebones marina)

Frank Law

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2017 : 03:55:12

Geographic supply and demand drives boat prices.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2017 : 05:52:23

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Not sure how your state taxes work in your case but I saved a good chunk of change by purchasing the boat separately from all of the additional paraphernalia that come with it such as the spare anchor, PFDs, cushions , sails, covers, pumps, gas tank, etc. When I did the math for the bill of sale, we estimated the boat at 3/4 and gear at 1/4 of the combined cost, so with a 6% motor vehicle tax, I saved enough for a nice handheld GPS. I would not call this creative accounting, instead GAAP.

In Ohio, the sales tax is driven off the stated sales price of the vessel only (no trailer, no motor, none of the other "stuff") which is on the title. Every time I have purchased a boat, and sold one, that spot has always been left blank for the purchaser to complete. Only boats are titled here, not O/Bs or trailers. Oddly enough, many people end up with pretty expensive motors and trailers with excellent deals on the actual boat!

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2017 : 21:43:54

...which is why the masses hate us "yachties"!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2017 : 18:10:39

Here's an '89 fin keel tall rig for sale just North of Houston for $4,495. 2012 6HP Nissan 4-stroke. Price seems low.

http://sailingtexas.com/201701/scatalina25402.html

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 06/21/2017 18:11:27

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2017 : 19:05:53

Wow! The '89 is the first year of the last and best version of the C-25, with a different deck and interior molding. The cabin sole is lower due to the lack of a swing keel option, so headroom is greater. A number of subtle changes were made on deck. By 1991 (the last year), the C-25 apparently was too expensive and too heavy for its market, which was turning toward trailer-sailers or larger boats. (No C-25 is a "trailer sailer.") But I've often proposed the '89-91 C-25 might be the best value in a "transportable" coastal cruiser ever made by anybody, including Catalina.

My feeling is the market value of a good '89 wing keel model is now around $10K--the fin a little less, and a spectacular specimen a little more... But that Texas boat is a LOT less--even if you need to buy a new genoa. And the young 6hp 4-stroke should be fine on a modest sized inland lake. Viewing the boat in Texas and transporting it from there are add-ons I can't estimate. But if I were in the market, I might think hard about checking that one out.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/21/2017 19:18:49

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2017 : 10:42:29

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Geographic supply and demand drives boat prices.

I think Islander is spot on.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

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