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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

help finding keel drop instructions

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jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/20/2016 : 04:28:31

I may not be using the search feature correctly but I cannot find the often referred to "4 rod keel drop method" write up. I find it referred to in several post. There is one post dated 4/16 from Dave5041, but I could not find the the pics referred to . I checked thru owners manual and tech tips. Not found. In some post links are given but they all result in not found.
It may be my chromebook opsys (chromeos) as I have had issues before.

Anyway, I need to check my 78 C25 keel as it did wobble getting it on the trailer.
Help me find this documentation Please.
thanks, JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 05:38:13

This is the best description of the process I have been able to find. There are no photos, but you should be able to figure it out. If you do the job, please take photos and let us post the photos and text in our Tech Tips.

Once they have the boat hauled and chocked for you pull one of the keel hanger bolts out to get the thread size and pitch. If I remember correctly it is a 3/8 inch bolt with a standard coarse thread. I had a couple of various sized nuts that I used to thread on the bolt to make sure I had the correct size.

I then took the correct nut, after replacing the hanger bolt, to the hardware store and purchased regular zinc threaded rod in the same size using the nut to confirm that the rod is a match. I got enough rod to cut four sections about 3 feet long. I also got 4 3/8 inch flat washers and 4 5/8 inch washers. After cutting the rod, either clean up the thread with a file or just use the non-cut end.

Thread the nut on one end, then the 3/8 washer and then the 5/8 washer. Take out one hanger bolt and thread the rod in it's place. When you tighten the nut up flush you have the large washer against the shoe casting, then the 3/8 washer against the nut.

After replacing all four bolts with threaded rod you can now begin to lower the keel. Slack off the keel cable a few turns to give some clearance and then back of the nuts on the threaded rod by about 1/2 an inch. Use a cross pattern like you would on tire lugs. Having a helper with a second wrench makes it go easier.

As you drop the front of the keel, remember to drop the rear with the cable to keep enough clearance. You might need to encourage the shoe casting to release if there is a lot of paint build up, but I didn't.
Continue slowly until you have dropped it eough to do the work.

I would <b>strongly</b>encourage you to have the yard provide you with another bow stand to help support the keel when it is down on the rods or build a stack of 4x4 cribbing to support it. If you get a lot of side to side motion on the keel while sanding on it you could strss the threaded rod to the point of failure. Trust me when I say that 1500 lbs of iron is very unforgiving.

After you are done, reverse the process to replace the bolts. Once that is done, crank the keel down to the ground, or all the way down if it hangs free, to the point that the cable is slack. Now you can remove the cable and replace it and the turning ball as necessary.

The complete thread can be found here. http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=3188&SearchTerms=threaded

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

MrKawfey
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 06:13:27

I've been putting off dropping the keel for a long time. One thing I am really worried about it breaking the head off one of the bolts. It doesn't seem to get discussed much here but how common is it? As a former auto mechanic this is probably the most feared issue as it has the potential to take any simple ten minute job and turn it into hours of labor.

Chris
Sacandaga Lake, NY
1984 C25 SRSK
"Les's Moor"

Edited by - MrKawfey on 05/20/2016 06:13:56

jmczzz
1st Mate

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92 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 08:54:27

Steve, Thank you for this write up. I do notice a difference in the rod length (3') you give and the other info I have found (2'). It seems that 2' would work in that all sources I found say you only need to drop it 6" to get to the pin and keel pin hole. The main factor is my hardware store only has this rod in 2' lengths.
If it becomes necessary to drill out the keel hole and install the "sleeve" it seems to me it might be better to drop the keel all the way to a grounded support frame?
Advice appreciated. JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

JamesBird
1st Mate

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68 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 09:26:46

JMc,

I recently used the 4 rod procedure to drop down my keel for service. It works very well but is time consuming as you must turn the nuts evenly to keep the keel even. Be careful when you lower or raise the rear of the keel using the cable. The keel will have a tendency to move forward or aft, depending on the keels position. Don't let the rods bend. Here's a picture

Jim
Danvers, MA
79 Cat25/SR/SK/(1185)

Edited by - JamesBird on 05/20/2016 09:27:36

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 09:37:19

Jim, excellent! thanks. JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 11:26:59

quote:
Originally posted by JamesBird

JMc,

I recently used the 4 rod procedure to drop down my keel for service. It works very well but is time consuming as you must turn the nuts evenly to keep the keel even. Be careful when you lower or raise the rear of the keel using the cable. The keel will have a tendency to move forward or aft, depending on the keels position. Don't let the rods bend. Here's a picture

Jim, your hinge castings look to be upside down.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 13:54:43

looks right to me????

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 14:32:02

I fortunately never had to drop the swing keel. I did have this drawing uploaded though, and it indeed looks like it is upside down:

Also, I found a photo from Frank Hopper, looks like this:

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

JamesBird
1st Mate

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68 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 16:11:18

Well, I hope not. I'm done with the inspection and would hate to lower the keel again. That's the way they were when I lowered the keel. Perhaps the PO put them in upside down? What would happen if I left them like that? anybody else have their castings like mine????

Jim
Danvers, MA
79 Cat25/SR/SK/(1185)

Edited by - JamesBird on 05/20/2016 16:21:01

jmczzz
1st Mate

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92 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 16:34:57

David Buoy makes a very astute observation. I have dropped the keel on my C 22 several times. The castings rounded part fit up into a recess that is formed to that curved surface and the round part that holds the keel pin. I believe Frank Hopper's photo shows the casting mounted correctly. Although I have not yet dropped the keel on my C 25 I do wonder why these two boats would be different as to how the castings fits into the hull recess? Wouldn't mounting them with the rounded part down as in Jim'm picture cause the keel to hang a little lower? The diagram in Davy J's post clearly show the pin above the bottom edge of the keel trunk. It seems to me on a C 25 as is on the C 22 putting the rounded part (pin recess) down would put the pivot pin even or below the edge of the keel trunk.
Now I hope some of our more experienced members take a look at these pics and help clear this up.
thanks, JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

JamesBird
1st Mate

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68 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 17:05:18

The more I think about this, I think you guys might be right. I do remember a cut out where the round part of the hinge would fit up into but didn't think much of it as the castings weren't oriented that way when I dropped the keel. I might need to send an email to catalina to clarification on this. I don't need any issues with the keel.

Jim
Danvers, MA
79 Cat25/SR/SK/(1185)

MrKawfey
Navigator

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124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 17:17:29

Fwiw mine are like Frank's, not like Jim's

Chris
Sacandaga Lake, NY
1984 C25 SRSK
"Les's Moor"

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 17:24:54

James, Don't feel bad about it, I had the same on my 22. The casting were upside down when I got it. so I proceeded to put them back just like that after installing a new pin and keel hole sleeve. Then having to take it down and do it right after several old hands showed me my mistake. I didn't even notice the problem in your photo so Its good Buoy did.
I carefully read your comment on keeping the keel level by lowering the winch in the same relative amounts as unscrewing the nuts. Made good sense.
Thanks for your input. JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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707 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2016 : 18:11:52

Mine were like this a month ago...

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

JamesBird
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2016 : 04:55:47

Thanks guys. Best to do it right. I'll be dropping the keel this morning AGAIN to make it right. This crap keeps up I'll be lucky to splash by June!

Jim
Danvers, MA
79 Cat25/SR/SK/(1185)

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2016 : 09:07:22

I guess mine have been upside down since I got Pearl. I'll have to drop them this Fall. Woo, less turbulence and less running aground with the keel up 1 - 2".

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2016 : 10:13:57

quote:
Originally posted by MrKawfey

I've been putting off dropping the keel for a long time. One thing I am really worried about it breaking the head off one of the bolts. It doesn't seem to get discussed much here but how common is it? As a former auto mechanic this is probably the most feared issue as it has the potential to take any simple ten minute job and turn it into hours of labor.

Chris,
My 72 C 22 had bolts that looked like they had not been renewed in many years so i was prepared for the worse. I cleaned all around them and used a plastic tube from a spray can of WD40 on a can of PB Blaster. Every couple of days for a couple of weeks before i was ready to tackle keel drop I sprayed around them and stuck the tube up in the trunk area where i figured the bolts went into the seats and sprayed there as well. I think it helped because the bolts came loose with just a good socket on a breaker bar jiggled back and forth just a little to free them up.
JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

JamesBird
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2016 : 05:39:20

Ok, Hangers have been reinstalled correctly but now I am confused on the torque for the bolts. Catalina specifies 35 ft lbs but everything I find concerning torque values for 3/8x16 316 stainless bolts says 247 in lbs or 21 ft lbs.

http://www.engineersedge.com/torque_table_sae.htm

I torqued the bolts to 35lbs as Catalina recommends but now I'm worried they may be over torqued and could fail.
Any engineers out there?

Jim
Danvers, MA
79 Cat25/SR/SK/(1185)

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2016 : 05:49:57

Jim, this is a good question, i would like the answer also. There is a lot of discussion on this on the C 22 forum. Maybe it would get better attention as a new topic. JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2016 : 06:36:44

Just curious if you guys are using any thread locker on the bolts like Locktite Blue?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

jmczzz
1st Mate

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92 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2016 : 07:29:56

yes i have because of the recommendations from the C 22 group. But there was a lot of discussion about not using the Catalina torque specs and the general agreement was to use a lessor amount. I could look it up but didn't know if it would apply also to the C 25.
Here is a quote from that discussion "Thirty ft.-lb. of torque is 160% over the maximum recommended torque for 5/16"-18 stainless steel bolts and is flirting with breakage. I use 12 ft.-lb. and don't recommend exceeding 15. Yes, that does sound (and feel) low but snap one or two off by trying to make them "feel" right and it will make you a believer."

Also note the above diagram bolt size looks to be 3/8" 1 1/2". Someone said the diagram is for a 22 and a 25. I confess I am confussed. Surley someone can give the accurate complete info on bolt thread size, pitch, length and thread type.
JMc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

Edited by - jmczzz on 05/22/2016 07:42:52

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