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Main hatch slides repair?

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slim
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USA
113 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/17/2016 : 19:00:02

Hi everyone

For those of you that have the privilege of owning one of the older C25 you might have had this condition and be able to share information with me. As you can see in the photos below my main hatch slides are just about completely gone, in any event they are no longer carrying any of the load from the weight of the hatch. I am looking for a way to rebuild the slides and have been unable to really come up with anything that fires my rocket. If you have experience with this or just ideas of how you might do it please jump in and let me know.

Thanks Slim

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2016 : 19:42:32

Hi Slim... I'll assume that my '85 was the same design regarding the sliding hatch. Looking at that design, as I did when mine was making a screaching sound as it slid, I concluded that the designers intended for the load to be carried by the vertical forward and aft edges of the hatch where they meet the molded, raised "rails" on the pop-top (or cabin-top for those without a pop-top). The little flanges on the side of the hatch just aren't structurally up to the task of bearing significant weight--especially if somebody steps on the hatch (as of course they have and will). The forward and aft edges and the molded rails are much better designed to support the weight of the hatch and whoever plants their foot there. But when those edges wear after 30-some years, the weight transfers to the side flanges, which quickly start to wear thin and crack.

So what are the flanges for? They hold the hatch in place and keep it from flying off. In other words, they are designed to resist modest upward forces--not significant downward ones.

So, around 2002, I added small nylon slides to each of the four cut-outs in the hatch that contact the molded rails. I used chair slides that had "cups" that I could trim to fit around the hatch edges, and then I think I used some sealant to help hold them--I'm not sure about the exact details now. The result was that the hatch slid easily and silently, and the side flanges did not need to be reinforced, as in my case they had not worn as much as it appears yours have--for the obvious reason: age.

One option to consider is to check with the people in our Swap Meet who are parting out C-25s to see if you can get a new hatch. If not, you probably need to re-create those side flanges with a few layers of fiberglass. Either way, I would do something to support the hatch on the molded rails so the flanges don't bear any weight. Then those flanges only need to be sufficient to keep the hatch in place.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/17/2016 20:46:02

redeye
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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 06:45:59

Glass it up

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 07:14:29

quote:
Originally posted by redeye

Glass it up

I tried that on mine, but the repair didn't last. It's thin, and attached on a 90 deg. angle, and I couldn't figure out how to make it sturdy enough. I believe there's a good way to fix it, but we need some creative person to tell us how.

If your boat hasn't had this problem yet, it would be good to do something similar to Dave's suggestion, to reduce the friction on the slide, and slow the deterioration.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 07:30:46

I would tape it up and paint on a layer of resin on the outside and then lay a strip of fiberglass matting down and roller it in and paint on another layer of resin. Then flip it over and to the same thing on the inside.

Mine is getting thin and I've been watching it for some time.

Pre-planning.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 02/18/2016 07:32:26

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 08:02:31

Dave has it right. The slides are for centering and guiding the hatch only and were never intended to support any weight but through the years the hatch has worn down to the point that those flanges start to rest on the wood rails and eventually wear down and break from foot traffic. I would glass up many layers of fiberglass strips then shape the flange with a sander. Like Dave I added some chair slides to my hatch so as to keep the flanges from doing what yours did.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 08:05:40

I used stock 1/8 thick aluminum angle on the top side of the flange as a core and back filled with thickened epoxy, it isn't a 90� angle, and overlaid with woven glass cloth. I smoothed and polished. the bottom with thickened epoxy. I intended to do the bottom surface the same way but didn't have space for the additional thickness. Mine was was thin, but not broken.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 08:27:35

There's my slider in Scott's photo. (Well, it's his slider, but...) And Steve's experience is what you should expect if you rely on the side flanges to bear the hatch as it slides on the wood surface and it gets stepped on. The molded rails on the top are there for a reason--to support the hatch. The slots in the teak rails are there to keep the hatch in place. After a few decades, things change... Beefing up the side flanges to bear the hatch is asking them to do something I don't believe they were ever designed to do.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 08:32:47

<< added some chair slides to my hatch >>

Nice shot, thanks ... looks like a good solution.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Bladeswell
Captain

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490 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 08:58:14

Hello Everyone,

Mine is intact but screeching when I slide it. I would like to look at fixing this before it gets as bad as Slim's. What are the steps needed to remove the hatch for inspection and reinforcement? By the way, I believe CD has some Teflon tape for the main hatch. Has anyone used it? Thanks.
Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Edited by - Bladeswell on 02/18/2016 09:00:59

slim
Navigator

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113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 09:02:29

Thanks every one for that info. I did find some information by doing a google image search ( Sliding Hatch - Cracked flanges, New design for teak slider rails ) and looked at what stinkpotter is describing in his post in the photos I found.

I have aluminum angle on hand and am thinking seriously of doing the rework with that if i can come up with a way of making everything fit together the fiberglass solution i believe may not have the strength to endure for long. Will think on it for a day or two and relpost then.

Slim

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 02/18/2016 09:05:39

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 09:33:38

Slim, the fiberglass flanges are NOT suppose to support any weight. They are way to thin for that and will eventually break as you now know. Re fiber glassing them is only to repair the flanges. The hatch is supposed to be supported on the molded fiberglass rails that are under the chair glides in the photo. Through the years the hatch has worn down in that area and has dropped down allowing the flanges to drop down and start hitting the wood rail. Now when you step on the hatch those flanges are trying to support the weight, Something they are not intended to do. What has to be done is the flanges need to be repaired ether by fiberglass or aluminum angle brackets. Then the hatch needs to be raised by chair glides or strips enough so as the flanges are centered in the wood rail slots and do not support any weight.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

slim
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Response Posted - 02/18/2016 : 16:30:14

Well I decided to go with the fiberglass after all as it is the original material and as was said the flange should not require much strength if i add the small pillows for it to ride on. I was a little concerned about the tight 90 on such a small area but the triaxial fiberglass has a natural seam in its layup that allows that tight curve if you stay with it.

Only 2 layers on now will see how it goes tomorrow adding another 3 or 4 more.

Slim

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 08:02:28

Wow, No messing around on this project...Slim since you have the fiberglass out you could build up the worn areas of the hatch where it rides on the molded fiberglass rails instead of using the chair glides. Maybe some thickened epoxy to make 4 pads,2 in the front and 2 in the back.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 09:30:39

RE: TEFLON

I put teflon strips on my previous boat and found it so easy to slide the hatch that is was dangerous. A small bump, even the odd wave would cause it to slide open or closed, not so good when standing on the cabin fiddling with something and stepping onto what you thought was a closed hatch without looking, or even leaning forward or aft while standing on an open or closed hatch. Not great while standing in the cabin with the hatch open and looking out either. Just my experience.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 11:32:09

Hello Again,

Wow, so much for teflon. I can easily see what you mean. Somehow, I didn't think it would slide quite that easily. Not good at all. Thanks. I do still need to know the process for the companionway hatch removal. Like, do I need to remove one of the hatch rails to get it off ? Thanks again.
Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

islander
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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 11:41:27

quote:
Like, do I need to remove one of the hatch rails to get it off

Yes, You can remove one side and then you can remove the hatch.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

slim
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 18:35:00

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Wow, No messing around on this project...Slim since you have the fiberglass out you could build up the worn areas of the hatch where it rides on the molded fiberglass rails instead of using the chair glides. Maybe some thickened epoxy to make 4 pads,2 in the front and 2 in the back.

Thats a great idea and after reading the other comments i am thinking that i should take the time to do just that.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Kim Luckner
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 18:52:29

Sorry I'm calling BS on the Teflon story. There is a coefficient of friction that relates to the weight of the sliding hatch. I don't think this hatch is going to be sliding willy nilly back and forth. I've removed mine and it weighs a lot ~100 lbs.

Seeadler
'79 C25 SR/FK #1432
Mentor Lagoons

slim
Navigator

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113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 19:36:03

quote:
Originally posted by Kim Luckner

Sorry I'm calling BS on the Teflon story. There is a coefficient of friction that relates to the weight of the sliding hatch. I don't think this hatch is going to be sliding willy nilly back and forth. I've removed mine and it weighs a lot ~100 lbs.

Well Kim I just got back in from going out to my boat and weighing the hatch. I could not believe that i could possibly handle that kind of weight (100 LB) as i have a outboard that weight 115 and know that it is too much for me to man handle. The hatch weight is 30 pounds so maybe you can cut David's teflon story a little slake and we will all cut you some on your weight of the hatch. LOL

Slim

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Bladeswell
Captain

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490 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2016 : 21:49:09

Hello All,

Thanks for your answer Scott, I appreciate it. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that the entire poptop weighs about 70 lbs. I believe it was on CD where they are describing the power lift kit for the poptop. So the hatch alone can't possibly weigh in at 100 lbs. But hey, I've lost count of how many times I'm wrong about something.By the way Slim, if you are going to make glass pads instead of chair slides. Please take pictures. I would be very interested in the process and outcome. Good sailing everyone.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Edited by - Bladeswell on 02/19/2016 21:53:43

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2016 : 07:51:42

RE hatch weight -- the standard hatch may weigh in at @#30 while the pop top is larger and may weigh in at @#100

This is an excellent thread for the of us with long in the tooth boats that often need "refreshing"

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2016 : 09:25:36

While the actual coefficient of friction varies with materials and their surface condition and must be measured for a specific situation, Teflon (PTFE) falls between 0.04 and o.l on a large variety of smooth finished materials. Even at 0.2 we're talking anything greater than 6 pounds of lateral force on a 30 pound hatch resulting in movement. I didn't weigh my hatch while it was off, but it was certainly closer to 30 than 100 pounds. t could easily open or close my previous boat's hatch with one finger until I removed the Teflon. I related my experience, yours may vary. None the less, I would not recommend Teflon slides on a hatch that cannot be locked in position.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2016 : 09:30:06

quote:
Originally posted by Kim Luckner

Sorry I'm calling BS on the Teflon story...

So you're saying he made it up? Sorry, but I recall a similar story involving Teflon tape (not sure who from) several years ago. Teflon tape is about as slippery as you can get. It sounded like a real, potential danger and a useful warning.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/20/2016 09:32:21

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/20/2016 : 10:35:58

My VERY limited experience using teflon tape is, to paraphrase an old ad "a little dab will do ya" My guess is that if someone took the time to experiment they would find some amount that would enable easier sliding while not making it to risky for opening/closing. That said, the issue is more of wearing of parts and not necessarily ease of opening. The repairs and sliders seem to be a better solution to the OP issue.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2016 : 11:50:26

To me the Teflon tape is a band aid to fix or attempt to fix what the real problem is. The fact is that our boats are getting? old. The hatch probably was easy to slide when they were new and slid on the 4 points of contact. As the hatch wore down the flanges started to make contact with the teak rails and caused a lot more friction making it more difficult for the hatch to slide. Using the Teflon tape overcomes the added friction and stops any squeaking but it doesn't fix the real cause. Temporary fix at best.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 02/20/2016 11:52:08

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