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keel trunk damage

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jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/11/2016 : 05:42:39

I have searched and read for hours everything i find in active and archived on this topic. Now I am having serious depression about the serviceability of the new to me C25 SK SR Settee Interior. I bought several months ago. The boat is blocked up sitting in my yard. the Keel is dropped on the trailer and has been moved out of the way.
I find a crack and delamination under the port forward settee seat in the area of the compression post contact with the hull and the forward part of the keel trunk. Examination from the bottom looking up into this port keel trunk head area I found what appears to be the expansion end of pop rivets.
My impression is there has been some sort of damage to this area caused by sideways slap of the keel head against the trunk side.
Before I dropped the keel I could with a lot of pressure wobble the keel some side to side. I have subsequently disassembled the pivot pin and discovered the whole in the keel to be somewhat worn and out of round. Not as much as I had on my C22 when doing the same keel restore work.
The hanger bolts in a couple of the weldments while tight when removed have wobble back and forth when 1/3 screwed into the weldment (no hangers or keel in place). When the boat was in the water I did not see any leakage from the area of the crack. There is signs of a fiberglass repair in the trunk area under the port forward settee.
The boat was in a slip that was exposed to wave action and just before I hauled it out the was several days of severe bucking around in the slip strong enough to pull out one stern cleat and I find several other cleats loose.
Questions;
How much if any of the delaminated fiberglass and tape should I cut away or just epoxy back in place? Is there a way to reinforce this area by adding a support epoxied on the bulk head against the bottom of the compression post and is this advisable?
I have two pics of the crack delamination. One as found and one with a pen stuck into the crack to pull the material away from the compression post. No other damage is viable.
Should I cut out the liner to expose the starboard side of the trunk to inspect for damage?
Sorry if I am long winded here but I wanted to give all the info I have.
Thanks for advice on how I should proceed.
jmczzz aka James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

Edited by - jmczzz on 09/12/2016 12:56:24

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2016 : 13:39:07

Unfortunately with the dinette, gaining complete access to the keel trunk will require cutting away part of the dinette seat. I had a hairline crack at the rear of the keel trunk that was repairable by adding 3 layers of fiberglass cloth to the keel trunk. you will probably need to cut away all of the cracked covering to expose the actual damage and re-glass it. However, I'm not a boat repair expert, so I would first recommend having an expert look at it.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

jmczzz
1st Mate

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92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2016 : 17:46:04

I cut the loose glass cloth away from the compression post and off the hull as far back as that top layer had delaminated from the hull. I discovered the bottom of the post is wet and after poking a screw driver horizontally under there I opened the space to the other side up some. Water then came from under the post. I guess it is coming from the bilge on the starboard side. The stringer is under there but I do not know if there is an opening to the area under the head floor. I scraped the hull all around that area from under the boat. I do not see any sign of a crack. If there is water in the bilge wouldn't it find any crack and drip out? I will take some pics tomorrow (got to recharge my camera) and cut open access to the starboard side of the compression post.
thanks James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

Edited by - jmczzz on 09/12/2016 10:47:45

jmczzz
1st Mate

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92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2016 : 10:59:28

These are pics of the trunk head looking forward after I got all the layers of bottom paint off. you can see the hair line cracks one horizontal low at the base of the trunk, one vertical just to starboard. my next move is to grind these open and deeper to see if i can tell how far they go up, maybe all the way thru to the bottom of the compression post. this is looking like a serious problem. Soon I'll have to make a decision as to continue or scrape the boat?
you also can see a bilster crater to port forward. this is the only major one I found on the bottom.
Comments or advice appreciated. jmczzz aka James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

Edited by - jmczzz on 09/12/2016 11:00:31

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2016 : 12:29:33

Hi James... I've seen pictures here that looked worse, and stories of boats that sank or took on serious water due to keel drops. I hate to see it! A cable failure is not the only cause--some have happened when the keel rode up over an underwater obstruction and then fell back down.

You said you've done some of this kind of work on a C-22... I don't know what your overall experience is with structural fiberglass repairs, and I don't know about the resources in your area, but I can say what I'd do: I would ask a fiberglass repair professional to assess the area, describe the necessary project, and give me a price. I wouldn't tell him I might opt to do the work myself, because I might not. But I'd be sure he understood that this area supports and contains a 1500 lb., 5' long hunk of cast iron on a pivot pin and cable. Heeling, pitching and rolling will put considerable stresses on the area. Some C-25 SKs have taken on water under sail but shown virtually no leakage at rest--apparently due to cracks that opened up under lateral stress.

Also, we've had reports that many of these "worse" cases have been fixed satisfactorily. (Several folks retrofitted a wing keel from Catalina--it had a tongue that fit up into the trunk, but it was expensive to buy, ship and install, and is no longer available from what I've heard.)

Best of luck!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/12/2016 12:31:42

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2016 : 13:53:48

If I can't fix it myself then it is the end of my dream. I have experience with fiberglass repair and feel sure I could do the work. What I need is an expert that knows these boats and could give me some instruction on the steps I need to make a strong and safe repair.
Is there anyone one this forum that could do that?
thank you, James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2016 : 15:40:44

I'm guessing you have seen this post http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29405

Sand the gelcoat down and see if the fiberglass has any stress cracks. Gelcoat will crack before fiberglass will.

I wouldn't worry too much about the bottom of the mast support post being wet if you have water in your bilge. Its all open under the floor. In boats as old as ours, I wasn't worried about the delamination around the post.

Send me a PM and I'll send you my mobile number. I could type a novel on the subject, but would rather have a conversation. Expert, I'm not, but I have been in your place and tackled it myself.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2016 : 19:36:53

that's what I was looking for. Thank you Jeremy you are saving me a lot of misplaced effort, cause I am determined to fix it. I will start grinding down the gel coat in the morn and post some pictures. Now I know what it all looks like on the inside will make it a LOT simpler...
again thanks sailor.
jmczzz aka James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 04:40:24

How much time and money do you already have in your boat? I boat my boat that didn't need damage repairs at all and only maintenance for only $1,500. Just my 2cents, but the time & money and grief spent over that repair may make you not even want the dream any more. GL with whatever you do though.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

jmczzz
1st Mate

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92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 08:38:51

I've got about 1k$ in the boat. I did not know about the keel crack problem when the boat was in the water. I do have some investment in bringing it to my farm to "fix it up". I have pretty much managed so far on my pension cash flow spending $ after living expenses. I don't have any reserve $ stashed so that is the only way I can have a sailboat. there is a list of coulddas, woulddas, haddas I can come up with. But I am now where I am with this boat. I'm not a boat newby. Have owned and sailed 4 from a 30 to a 22. My first SK was a C 22 which I "fixed up" and still have. I applaud your austerity and good fortune with your C25. Any older boat is a crap shoot and requires a willingness to take the gamble. Some are winners some not. I fail to see the point of your post?
I have considered scrapping it but don't see a big market for 78 SK parts and have no idea how to dispose of the remains. I am not yet convinced I cannot fix this as I have not dug into it deep enough at this point. That is what I intend to do today.
Thank you,
James aka jmczzz

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 10:54:46

Best of luck with the project and hope you get to the point where you can have some fun in the water with her.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 12:28:15

Thanks I have been sailing my C 22. It's a good boat. this one will be also just got to bring her up to snuff.
>
I ground off the gel coat in the area of the cracks (see pics in above post). I did not find that the cracks went any deeper than gel coat. So that eases the situation some.

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 13:12:51

Regarding the wet compression post, Catalina didn't bother putting in limber holes from one compartment to the other so all water would drain to the bilge. My guess is there is water trapped in the compartment under the head. Others here have found water there. You could put an inspection plate in. If the compression post rots the mast will sink into the boat depressing the mast plate into the cabin top and making it near impossible to keep the shrouds adjusted.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/13/2016 15:39:02

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 13:20:34

good input thanks I thought the water may be under the walkway. doesn't the floor stringer the bulkhead sits on isolate the hull under the head floor? thanks James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

islander
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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 14:44:11

Nobody has a diagram or photo of the stringers before the liner was installed so your guess is as good as mine but the water is seeping from Infront of the compression post somewhere migrating back to the bilge sump. Thats my best guess.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 15:24:10

And pretty accurate i'd say. the first thing I had to do was remove all the stanchions and pot the holes. the rain was pouring in.
thanks,
this boat is to be used for my bucket list item to do the great loop. I wanted the shallow draft of the SK and it is big enough for me to cruise a long time / small enough for me to single hand. I am planning 2 yrs. hope to launch in Kentucky Lake and head south to the Tenn-Tom late fall, winter around Fl. join the spring migration north, eventually up the Canadian channels to Montreal etc.
Thanks for your interest and assistance. James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 16:19:16

quote:
Originally posted by jmczzz

If I can't fix it myself then it is the end of my dream. I have experience with fiberglass repair and feel sure I could do the work. What I need is an expert that knows these boats and could give me some instruction on the steps I need to make a strong and safe repair.
Is there anyone one this forum that could do that?
thank you, James

Here's an additional and excellent resource for fiberglass repair . . . products, manuals and technical support.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Edited by - OJ on 09/13/2016 16:25:35

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 16:32:54

thanks OJ I went directly to the manual and page on repair / replace stringers and floors. good info. thanks again. James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 17:36:15

As a side note The delamination around the compression post was probably caused by the post wood becoming saturated and swelling. Boy that's some bucket list. I have reservations about using a C25 for that journey. Keep in mind that they were made as a coastal cruiser more suited to day sailing with some overnights. I might have targeted a different boat like an Albin28 with a proven track record for taking on a journey like you are planning yet is still small enough for single handling and living aboard. I know...They cost more

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/13/2016 17:55:06

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2016 : 17:41:08

right, If I can get to the water source and dry it up. it will stay dry then I can get some epoxy on it. I am thinking I will have to put an access plate on the starboard of the post so I can see what going on in there.
thanks, James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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USA
441 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 07:50:01

Keep up the good work!! and keep us posted. Thanks

Capt Sam, USCG Master Near Coastal
Isle of Hope, GA. Charleston,SC. Lake Murray, SC.
Aboard Bobbin - 1982 Standard Rig-Swing Keel #2963 Dinette Model
"On a powerboat you are going somewhere....On a Sailboat you are Already There!" Capt Sam

http://my.boatus.com//memberPhotos/6315398_1_25502.jpg

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 08:18:27

Thanks Capt. I like your quote. James

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

offshoreaccount
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 10:38:32

You can use penetrating/saturation epoxy to try and retain strength. I used this on a few other pieces of wood with success, and have considered trying to soak my compression post as a preventative measure.

Offshore Account, 1977 Hull #243. SR, SK

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 10:44:14

If the base of the compression post is rotted, perhaps you will be able to cut it out and replace that portion with a hard block of plastic or polymer and glass it in place.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 10:51:50

Maybe a round piece of PVC pipe, 3 or 4" You could never crush it vertically.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

offshoreaccount
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 11:11:46

There are a number of threads related to catalina 30 that detail this repair.

Offshore Account, 1977 Hull #243. SR, SK

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