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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Fishtailing problem with my wing keel boat trailer

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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/06/2016 : 18:34:39

Having serious problems with trailer fishtailing at about 55 mph. Please advise. Chieg

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2016 : 19:19:02

quote:
Originally posted by Chief RA

Having serious problems with trailer fishtailing at about 55 mph. Please advise. Chieg

Usually means your center of gravity is too far back. What is your tongue weight? Also, is your boat pulled all the way forward on the trailer?

I've never trailered a boat that large, so not sure what the tongue weight should be. Do some Google searching, since it's sure to be a common issue with house trailers.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 07/06/2016 19:19:49

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2016 : 20:28:32

Agreed. I've always read/heard the tongue weight should be 10% or more of the gross trailer weight (boat+trailer+stuff). If you can put the trailer on the hitch or remove it by hand,...

Another factor: What's your tow vehicle?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 08:39:16

I have regularly hauled travel trailers and boat trailers for years and have never experienced such violent fishtailing. I haul my 28', 7000 lb travel trailer with my 1/2 ton Nissan Titan and all works well. I use load levelers with it and its predecessors but they will not fit on the tongue of my boat trailer. I will check the tongue weight but it should be correct. This boat, trailer and equipment weighs about 7000 lbs and stands 12.5 ft high! To make sure it hauled properly I put a lower receiver andball on so the trailer is level but obviously that did not help. Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 08:45:38

I can't pick up the tongue and boat is fully forward. I will Google this issue as well but want to know what my fellow Catalina 250 wing keel owners think and have experienced Thanks, Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 10:09:03

Google shows: weight forward, minimize rear weight, proper tire pressure, level trailer, 10% tongue weight, secure load.

Suspect tire pressure variance, rear weight with motor on boat, water tank not full, and need to tie down such a high load. What do you guys think? Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
229 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 10:17:16

My response based on pulling many boats is that tongue weight is key. You definitely need positive tongue weight. I am not able to quote any specific percentages, weight, etc. I just know that not enough tongue weight will lead to a lot of trailer sway.

My previous tow vehicle was a 1985 Ford E-150 van. Towing with that scared the daylights out of me. So, bad to the point that I abandoned the trip (purchased in Washington DC and towing home to Carlyle, IL) and came back with a borrowed F-250 and got the boat home without any further problems.

While I still had the van, I would only pull the boat about 20 miles each way. It always got interesting above 50 mph and was like having a tiger by the tail when a semi truck would pass me.

I now have a 1997 Ford E-350 box van (ambulance). That thing weighs 11,000 pounds. The boat tows like a dream. Nothing changed about how the boat is positioned on the trailer. I am not saying that you need to go get a different tow vehicle. Just sharing my experience. A solid suspension on the tow vehicle is probably important. The weight of that ambulance certainly helps.

I have taken two trips with this tow vehicle. First a short trip of about 100 miles each way as a trial run and then a much longer trip to sail on Grand Traverse Bay, Michigan. This was over 500 miles each way. I am going out again soon to Door County, Wisconsin. Another 500 mile each way trip. I am very pleased with the rig I have. It tows like a dream.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 10:20:35

You need to weigh the tongue. It should be over 700 lbs, so you're not going to determine that by picking it up.

On a theoretical level, dynamic stability is affected by moment of inertia (higher MOI is more stable), but having most of the weight at the keel at the center of mass is going to provide the lowest MOI. (Unlike RV trailers that have weight more evenly distributed across the length of the vehicle.) The low MOI would make the tongue weight even more important, perhaps needing to be well over 10%.

This is all speculative based on theory. You may not get an answer until you hear from someone who has actually towed a C250WK (or similar keelboat) at high speed.

delliottg, where are you?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 07/07/2016 10:23:32

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 11:28:15

When we tow SL, we first make sure all the tires are at proper inflation by stopping at a local tire dealer who'll do it for free. I have a drop hitch so the trailer is pretty close to level (it's a little inclined up toward the hitch, but not very much. I have no idea what my tongue weight is (I've never measured it), but I definitely can't lift it by hand, it has to be raised & lowered with the jack stand.

When we put the boat on the trailer we make sure it's all the way forward into the snubber by "bumping" the trailer (speed up to about 5mph, and stand on the brakes to scoot it forward).

I've towed the boat by accident at more than 70 mph (it was the first day I owned it, and about the 12th day I'd owned the truck, I was towing uphill on a mountain highway, and I had no real concept of how powerful my truck was). No fishtailing, ever.

The boat and trailer weighs in the neighborhood of 6k lbs when loaded (and I have weight in the bow BTW), the truck ('99 F-250 diesel) weighs about 7300 lbs unloaded. The trailer is around 1400 lbs, and I'm guessing the boat is at least another 4600 lbs.

I've put a new receiver and disc brakes on it, but even before I did that I had no fishtailing problems. Could you be dragging a brake pad? That'd be pretty evident if you towed for a while then stopped & check the temperature of your brakes. If one's significantly warmer than the other, investigate why.

Do you tow with the outboard mounted to the back? If so, (and I do as well), you might try removing it and putting it in the bed of your truck to move the center of gravity forward. Move your gas tank as well to remove the weight behind the tires.

Ideally the COG would be centered on your front trailer wheels or directly in between the fronts & rears.

Do you have a bunch of stuff on your rear berth? If so, you might try moving it forward to the V-berth instead to move the COG forward.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - delliottg on 07/07/2016 11:55:17

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 12:06:17

David, David & Rick: I much appreciate your sincere assistance! I will be sure to go over all of your input step by step to be sure I do not overlook anything you mentioned for me to check. My truck weighs over 5k and is 4x4, 390 ft lbs torque and 317 hp, with 10k load capability plus air bags. Air bags do not seem to help. Will provide feedback after testing but will be Oct. before I pull her. Does anyone know if a sway control bar can be mounted on our long box tongue as demo always shows mounted to split tongue. Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
229 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 12:20:43

Not exactly sure about adding sway control, but I initially added a weight distribution setup to my trailer. When I purchased it, I thought it did the same thing as sway control - I have learned otherwise since. I just removed it from my trailer last weekend, since I no longer bother to use it with the change in tow vehicles.

Anyhow, I guess my point is that if they sell, weight distribution devices for our trailers, then they probably sell something with sway control as well.

I will be taking the mast down and getting into travel mode on July 17 in preparation for a week long trip up north with the boat departing on Friday, July 22. If I have time, maybe I can get some weight information at a truck scale.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 12:32:55

Thanks David C.......Have fun on your trip and I will be heading for Bodega Bay where Compass Rose is in her slip. Hoping weather gets better! Yes, I use load levelers on my travel trailer but can't figure out how to use them on this trailer. Mine seem to eliminate fishtailing. My best, Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
229 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 13:12:01

This is basically what I just removed from my trailer. My bars use the chain and lever method though.

There has been concern expressed about using weight distribution hitches on trailers with surge brakes. I do know that my surge brakes still worked. I had this unit hooked up when I brought the boat home and in the mountains we could definitely tell that the trailer was trying to slow us down.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

Dave Brown
Navigator

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USA
174 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 13:27:07

Not "the fix " but i have 200lb of sand bags in the bow of my
250 WK. it puts the boat on the water line when its in the water, and could be your answer to the trailer, or it could help.
its a cheep fix, maybe. it helped me.
ps; with boat on trailer, this adds 200lbs tong wt.
Dave B

Edited by - Dave Brown on 07/07/2016 13:28:55

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 14:49:18

Dave: Know where you are coming from on extra weight in bow even on water. I have the water tank plus 4 gallon water jugs, window 6k air conditioner, 2 anchors and 40' chain and 300' 1/2" nylon rode.

David C: That cross bar on the load leveler system may be my answer to use my levelers as I have electric brakes on my boat trailer.

Thanks guys, Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2016 : 18:36:22

Everything I've ever read or experienced indicates tongue weight has to be at least 10% of the overall weight of the boat/trailer combo.

On one trip our powerboat kept fish-tailing which was not normal. Stopped and the boat had slid back a foot or so and the hitch was pulling up on the ball. Cranked it up to the bow stop and it never fish-tailed again.

Also, don't apply brakes while your trailer is fish-tailing. That is the worst thing you can do! From what I've read you should maintain your speed while manually applying a slight amount of brakes using the brake controller. The brakes being farther back should straighten you out (or at least reduce the swaying).

Keep in mind this won't work with surge brakes!

Another option although not as good would be to accelerate just slightly to help stabilize the trailer.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2016 : 06:57:40

David C: I too have used a chain style load leveler set on my surge brake trailers. I can personally state that the chain style leveler system is quite effective in use due to the pendulum effect of the chains. I never had less than 6 links in the cinch up. Where I believe this caution originated is when the fixed models were built and sold. Chains allow the surge to work.
Thanks again to all of you for helping me! Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

solvasoncc
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2016 : 07:43:24

I had the same problem. Turns out it was from too little tongue which was the result of PO trailer modifications to accommodate a new receiver brake cylinder. The dead give away is that the U-bolts for the bars leading from the bow post are attached behind the t-junction and not in front. That put the whole boat too far aft and lead to a light tongue and fish-tailing.

Charles

Catalina 250 WK SR Hull #475
College Station, TX

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.