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Swing Keel Off-Shore

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/10/2015 : 06:59:54

So, we're getting a little restless with our operating area and are considering exploring further locales.

How far off-shore, in otherwise 'good' but likely typical conditions would a 35 year old C25 swing keel, in sound mechanical condition, be safe?

We currently sail on a bay and encounter 2' - 4' swells (at most) and are comfortable with 20k - 25k of wind. Underconsideration is a trip from Mountauk Point to Connecticut. The trip would put us up to 5 miles off shore, and if the wind is NE, with full exposure to the Atlantic. Of course wind is the predominant consideration, but let's assume it's in the 10k - 15k range.

Anyone with experience and insights to share?

Many thanks,
Jerlim

Jerry

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 07:50:24

Jerry, I can't vouch for a swinger but my PO of my wing keel made the trip from Clinton Conn. to Block Island many times and also from Clinton to Martha's Vineyard once. Both of those are fully exposed. As always you have to pick and choose your weather windows. Guys down in Fla. do sail to the Bahama's and Catalina Island for the west coasters.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 08:18:14

Sailing in 10-12 kt winds and 2-4 ft seas is no harder on a boat 4-5 miles offshore than in a bay. Pick your weather and enjoy a great sail, but keep a sharp eye on the weather for changes, and don't wait for the last minute to decide to run for shelter. Know where each inlet is along the way, so you won't have to hunt for one under stress. If the boat starts pounding, bear off the wind a little, to avoid the pounding. Try not to get caught out in bad weather, but, if you do, reduce sail area to reduce boat speed, or if you're heading off the wind, you might even consider taking down the sails and motoring. Either of those actions will help settle the boat down and reduce pounding. Well maintained swingers have been bringing sailors home safely for about 35 years. With careful planning and good judgment, it will do the same for you.

edit: Also, don't go any farther offshore than you have to to reach your destination. If you're 5 miles offshore, it will take you about an hour to get to shelter. If you're 2 miles offshore, it will take less than a half hour. Unlike power boats, we can't run for shelter at high speed.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/10/2015 08:34:52

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 08:26:50

I had my SK C25 out on the Gulf of Mexico in some fairly good swells, I've also had my current boat out in conditions that I would not have wanted to be out in, in the C25. If you do go offshore, the most important thing to have is an EPIRB or PLB. I think you may still be able to rent one from BoatUS if you don't want to buy.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - Davy J on 12/10/2015 08:29:02

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 08:39:01

I sail mine from Cape Coral to Key West almost every year. But watch the weather window very carefully. One year we actually trailered it back because of the weather.

6-8 ft. swells from the north (to much for me). Most of all don't be in a hurry.

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 08:54:23

Thank you all, I appreciate your thoughts...I guess my more pointed question is this - Is a swing keel (in sound mechanical condition; securely connected, good pivot, etc) any less reliable or more vulnerable, than a fixed keel, in a challenging sea state?

Jerry

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 09:31:25

To get to CT from Jamesport, why not go through Plum Gut and put yourself into Long Island Sound? You just need to time the tide in the gut...

That said, I'd say Montauk to CT is within what we call "coastal cruising"--keeping in mind what Steve said about time and distance to shelter. The longer period ocean swell is probably easier on a boat like yours than some of Long Island Sound's "square chop." Even Block Island is a reasonable trip, and will feel more like open ocean or "off-shore" sailing. Just don't miss it--the next stop is Portugal.

(...well, Nantucket if you're lucky.)

One more thing: If the wind is forecast to be NE, I'd wait. A normal SW breeze suggests a nice day and a pleasant reach to CT. NE is likely to be an uncomfortable beat and dubious weather with winds that might pass 20. That's said from experience.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/10/2015 09:38:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 09:50:50

quote:
Originally posted by jerlim

I guess my more pointed question is this - Is a swing keel (in sound mechanical condition; securely connected, good pivot, etc) any less reliable or more vulnerable, than a fixed keel, in a challenging sea state?

A swing keel C25 is no less reliable or more vulnerable than a fixed keel, as long as you sail the boat in the conditions for which it was designed. C25s are really not designed and built to sail in a severe storm offshore. They're designed for coastal cruising and inland lake sailing. If you sail it in a severe storm, then, IMO, a swing keel is probably more vulnerable than a fixed keel, but you shouldn't be there in the first place, and if you are, that's mainly your fault, not the boat's fault. That's not to say that you're doomed if you get caught offshore in bad weather in a swinger. If you reduce speed, reduce pounding and take care of the boat, it'll probably be ok, but, whether you have a fixed or swing keel boat, the best choice is always to find shelter before the weather gets that bad. Don't be tempted to do what some people do, and sail a small coastal cruiser into foul weather, just because they want to see what it's like. The first time you sail offshore in bad weather, it should be in a boat that is so well designed and built that it can survive a storm all by itself, even if you go below and read a book in your bunk.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/10/2015 09:53:29

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 10:38:12

Gentlemen - My sincere appreciation for your learned insights, the value of this Forum is often beyond measure. The Admiral and I are by nature cautious, and work hard to avoid weather challenges. Steve, I think you may have said it best..."C25s are really not designed and built to sail in a severe storm offshore. They're designed for coastal cruising and inland lake sailing. If you sail it in a severe storm...you shouldn't be there in the first place, and if you are, that's mainly your fault, not the boat's fault."

Best of the Holidays to everyone!
Jerlim

Jerry

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2015 : 16:24:06

I will add, however, that our C-25 (a fin keel) easily handled more than we wanted to take, and proved it twice in 30+ knot winds on the nose with 4-5' whitecapping, spraying, short chop. (Our fault--we were trying to get home from a cruise.) Given the absence of reports here, I doubt that a sound swing keel would have fallen off, and suspect it would have done just as well.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/10/2015 16:25:05

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2015 : 11:55:19

5 miles is really coastal cruising. As noted, pick a good weather window. I regularly sail 5-10 miles off in the Gulf in the winter. The summers on Lake Erie often find me 20 miles off, Erie is 40-50 miles wide and 250 miles long. A little trip to the islands is 10 miles and some nice ports in Canada are 70-80 miles. The steep waves of Erie make 3-4 feet my upper limit of comfortable sailing, although Pearl has handled 5-6 better than me. Long period 6 footers with their softer rise and fall are ok on the Gulf, but 4 is more fun. The swinger's downside is the wear and tear of pounding in steep waves and the catastrophic capsize. A knock down is ok. but inversion would likely lead to the keel crashing into the cabin, leaving a very big hole in the bottom. The upside is that a true capsize is difficult to manage in a C-25. It would require a broadside of a very large breaking wave or pitchpoling down the front of a huge wave. You shouldn't be out there if those conditions are possible.

For a look at Erie's potential in late fall, or why we haul our boats in October: http://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/lake-erie-beauty#.usV5D5LDKD

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2015 : 12:11:07

quote:
Originally posted by Dave5041

For a look at Erie's potential in late fall, or why we haul our boats in October: http://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/lake-erie-beauty#.usV5D5LDKD

Erie is somewhat unique due to its shallowness. Superior is the opposite extreme, but can be majestic after a storm. I've watched many L. Michigan 8+ footers crash over breakwaters, inlet walls, and Chicago's Lakeshore Drive. Impressive! (And not for a C-25!)

I'm suspicious most of those photos are of collisions between reflecting and incoming waves, such as at a breakwater, which causes a sudden doubling of the height or a "standing wave" effect. (EDIT: I looked again and read the text--he already said it.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/11/2015 12:20:39

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2015 : 21:11:36

Yep, the western basin is generally around 30'- 40, that makes ugly waves. Even the deeper eastern basin doesn't approach the typical depths of Superior, Michigan, Huron,or Ontario. And for those of you unfamiliar with the Great Lakes, Ontario is the only one smaller than Erie. The arrival of late fall and early winter storms often bring 10' - 12' waves. I remember a great afternoon body surfing perfectly shaped 4-5 footers at Petosky State Park on MI's western shore. I longed for the board I sold when I left La Jolla decades before.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 12/11/2015 21:18:50

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2015 : 17:44:42

Absolutely awesome pictures. We were in Michigan, in early November, on the eastern shore. Still warm enough to eat outside at the waterfront pub, but the waves were crashing over the sea walls.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

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