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Rewiring Project

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tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/19/2014 : 18:38:32

I am in the process of moving the circuit panels and have been tracing wires. The pre-1988 owners manual shows that all of the DC wires are 14 GA but the actual writes are 16 GA. Has anyone else encountered this?

Also, how difficult is it to pull wires through the overhead to run new wire to the lights?

Tom

1978 C25 "Karma" #790
Toledo Beach Marina
LaSalle, Michigan

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2014 : 19:04:17

I had ordered a few spools of 14g only to discover it was too big to feed through some of the tighter areas. Ended up using 16g.

You are using Ancor marine grade?

Edited by - on

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2014 : 19:05:04

Pretty much impossible. The wires are laid in during manufacturing. You're not going to be able to pull the old ones out or new ones in. I re-ran all of mine on the surface. Adding the molding to cover them up is still on my todo list.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2014 : 19:06:30

I have rewired most of mine (1982) and found that some of the wires were no way 14 GA. I didn't do the wires that went through the cabin top in head because they are molded right in between the layers. The threads that I have read said the same thing. I also moved mine away from behind the sink and placed the panels on port side. I have not replaced the bow light wires yet. I plan on doing that next month. Already replaced the mast wires, not that hard to do if the mast is down. It really helps if you are a contortionist. LOL

Wes

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2014 : 21:16:40

I rewired the panel several years ago. The main feed from the battery to the panel was #8 or #10 (can't recall which). Don Casey's Electrical for Sailboats book reviews the gauge required given a certain length (round trip) given the current required. For example, the incandescent cabin lights are 20W, or 1.67A. Six cabin lights all on require 10A. Assume the greatest distance from the panel to the last light is 40 feet, round trip 80 ft. #12 wire would lose 1V, while #10 wire about 0.8V. I was able to fish #12 wire around the hull-deck joint for the lights.
The issue for the cabin lights was that the negative cable ALSO fed the bow running light. I ran an additional independent pair of wires for the running lights - #14.
I left the mast lights entirely alone - they worked - so if it works don't fix it!
I ran #12 wire to the VHF radio - I wanted maximum current for transmission however the distance is short.
#16 wire will result in undervoltage in many cases - for example - running lights, VHF, inverters or mounting an FM radio and iPod player by the head bulkhead.
For the latter, I ran the cable down behind the galley sink and drawers, under the quarterberth, under the battery box, under the starboard settee and into the head sink pedestal. I came up behind the head bulkhead and fished the wire under the hull-deck joint to the radio in the cabin. I also added a cigarette lighter plug in the head sink area to power my 12V vacuum, a lamp, a fan or my iPhone car charger. I used 12-4 stranded cable (pro-audio speaker wire) from the panel to the bulkhead.
I figured I was going to do the job - might as well use the right components.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2014 : 03:42:13

Mine was wired 16 also. Added a dedicated line to the bow and stern lights to get rid of that common ground also. Using the wood strip under the deck to hull joint to hang the wires with mountable head cable ties and grommets through the bulkheads.

Edited by - on

tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2014 : 05:30:18

I am using Anchor marine grade wire. I like the idea of routing everything along the cabin trim and under the settee.

I have taken the existing AC and DC panels and mounted them on a piece of 1/4" plywood as a temporary solution. The board will be mounted on the starboard side just behind the settee.

The final solution will be to purchase a Blue Sea 8084 panel. It may be a little more than needed but I like the dials to monitor current and it has ample room for expansion.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2014 : 04:01:41

I have a 1989 and rewired the mast, hooked up an addl switch panel for easy access from the cockpit for nav lights and installed two fans, one on the mast column and the other in the quarterberth area. My advice is to use the West Marine chart (or similar) for appropriate wiring with minimal current loss. I cannot say for certain but I believe I used 14 gage for some wiring and 16 gage for other wiring. I did not replace the wiring for the cabin lights, though, I changed to LEDs. Details of my panel install, etc are on my website.

Edited by - on

mrapkins
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2014 : 07:22:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tomh
 I am using Anchor marine grade wire. I like the idea of routing everything along the cabin trim and under the settee.

I have taken the existing AC and DC panels and mounted them on a piece of 1/4" plywood as a temporary solution. The board will be mounted on the starboard side just behind the settee.

The final solution will be to purchase a Blue Sea 8084 panel. It may be a little more than needed but I like the dials to monitor current and it has ample room for expansion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's a $600 panel!!!!!

Edited by - on

tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2014 : 17:37:17

What panel options would you recommend? I thought about that one because it had plenty of circuits and the meters to monitor the battery.

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mrapkins
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2014 : 05:52:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tomh
 What panel options would you recommend? I thought about that one because it had plenty of circuits and the meters to monitor the battery.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To monitor the battery I would look at something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Xscorpion-DVM23BB-3-Digit-Digital-VoltMeter/dp/B00ITN390I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8& qid=1400849101& sr=8-3& keywords=voltmeter mountable for $15.

And something like this http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B001P6FTHC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8& qid=1400849238& sr=8-3& keywords=marine breaker box for $41. I'm sure others will have better suggestions - perhaps for panels with circuit breakers instead of fuses - but then your costs go up.

I know we spend lots doing up our boats, but my 1984 cost $5,500. Spending more than 10% the cost of the boat on an electric panel doesn't, IMHO, seem to be the best use of of boat dollars - again IMHO!!!!!

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2014 : 17:15:22

I would strongly encourage you to install a panel that uses replaceable circuit breakers rather than fuses. Trouble-shooting a dead circuit to the navigation lights or the radio on a stormy night would be a lot more challenging if you need to take a fuse out an try to determine its condition, let alone trying to find and install its replacement while bouncing around in the dark. As Mark suggested, Blue Sea Systems makes an excellent assortment of panels. Paneltronics is, in my opinion, about equal but generally less expensive. It's easy enough to find their websites and browse their selections. Keep in mind that circuit breakers don't last forever, so keeping a few replacements stowed away for the future is good insurance against having to replace the entire panel (or living without a dead circuit).

In choosing a panel one of the primary considerations is how many separate circuits to allow for. One way to approach this is to provide a dedicated circuit for each component or system that you'd want to be independent of the others in case of a failure. You wouldn't, for example, want the radio to be unusable just because of a short somewhere in the spider web of wiring to the various lights. Similarly, if one of the cabin lights failed because an errant screw finally wore through the insulation on a wire somewhere and shorted it out, it would be nice if the lights on the opposite side of the cabin would still work. Good breakers can function as switches, so a breaker for the nav lights might serve in place of an additional switch, but you might want the anchor light on its own switch/breaker.

Then there's the matter of sizing the breakers for the load and the wiring. Remember, a breaker protects the wiring more than it protects the device at the other end. A short that doesn't trip the breaker until after the shorted wires become hot enough to ignite a fire is not doing its job. The breaker needs to be large enough to handle the maximum load from the device, plus the line loss in the wires going there (and back), but the wires need to be large enough to handle a short circuit that doesn't quite trip the breaker. It gets a little complicated.

Monitoring your battery (or batteries) is another whole topic, and there's plenty of information available. My choice was a Victron 600S, which seems to be the best value considering ease of installation as well as initial price and overall reliability.

Tom, before you just dive into this project, take a little time to think through what options you might later wish you had allowed for. Any renovation project is an opportunity to improve upon the original with respect to your own particular perspective.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2014 : 17:36:13

Agree with Lee. Start with the standard C25 panel layout and add 4 -5 extra circuits including two separate house lights, (port and starboard), a separate stereo/radio/TV circuit, a circuit or two for 12VDC outlets, a GPS or Chartplotter circuit and maybe a mast downlight circuit. But keep running, bow, anchor, house, accessories circuits separate and distinct.
Oh yes, on Passage, the VHF comes on with the main power switch - no breaker or switch there. If the boat's on, the VHF is on - full stop!

Edited by - Voyager on 05/23/2014 17:38:50

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