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Spinnaker?

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/25/2013 : 04:50:14

Jib is redone (heavy 150 on furler), new main ordered-now I am thinking about a light weight downwind sheet. Seems to me that an asymmetrical spinnaker may be the best choice. I do not have a spinnaker pole. I have found some used ones but not sure what size to get. What are your thoughts?

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2013 : 05:55:35

Part of the "allure" of an asymmetrical is there is no need for a pole. The weakness of an asym's is it's inability to sail straight downwind, maybe it was me, but I had to sail slightly off for it to work. Sorry, but the only picture I have handy is the asym flying off my Watkins, using an ATN tacker at about a beam reach...

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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1032 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2013 : 06:31:57

An asym cruising chute is an awesome "off wind" sail... generally it gives you enough boost to sail "hotter angles" than an symmetrical, without all the fretting and fuss of a symmetrical... but that usually only applies to one on a sprit. Regardless, a cruising chute will be faster than even your largest genoa downwind, but won't be able to sail any deeper really than genoa.

You need not have a "perfect fit" cruising chute... just "close." Try ebay, and get an asymmetric chute that has a close "luff length" +- 1 foot, and it should be sufficient for you, and save a bundle.

You can also try Atlantic Sail Traders.

If you just want something for off wind in light days, even a symmetrical rigged as an assym will work... This is what I had on my Capri 22, and it worked well enough that I didn't feel like the wind died when I turned downwind... My point is once you start down this road, you'll wonder why you never did it before! Here's my Capri 22 with the symmetrical rigged as an asym, with a tackline, and a shackle, tacked "inside" between the luff and the headstay.

Edited by - shnool on 12/25/2013 06:37:19

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2013 : 09:35:45

You can sail deeper with an asym by flying it off of a pole (like a sym). Gybing takes more steps though, and it isn't as efficient as sailing on broad reaches and "downwind tacking" by gybing often.

The "North Sails Direct" aka "Cruising Direct" asymmetric spinnakers fly nicely, come with very good socks, and are reasonably priced. They are also common on the used market. I bought the one that we flew on my Catalina 25 for about $400 on eBay (with sock). I have one two sizes larger on my Pearson 28-2 that I bought from Atlantic Sail Traders (also with sock) for a less good but still reasonable $900.

To my eyes they are pretty well made, have a tri-radial cut that holds it's shape well, and on the narrow beam C-25 they fly over a really wide range of angles, from just above a beam to well into a deep run.

This is the 30' North Sails Direct cruising gennaker on a Catalina 25 tall:

I don't know for sure if that would also fit on a Catalina 25 standard. They jump down to a 25' luff, which is a lot smaller than is ideal.

If you buy used make sure that what you are getting really is an asymmetric spinnaker and not a drifter, blooper, or some other form of lightweight sail from days gone by. It should be pretty broad in the shoulders, not triangular. Ask the seller for a photo of it flying if at all possible.

This is what that sail looks like from behind:

This is a weird pre-asym spinnaker sail shape to avoid:

It is missing the broadness in the shoulders that gives a lot of useful sail area. It also has a terrible cut that allows it to blow out of shape. However most used lofts would classify this as an asym spinnaker, and it would be disappointing to actually get it in the mail like that.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 12/25/2013 : 09:44:43

If you are mostly using the boat for racing and sail with a bit more crew I would heavily consider a symmetric spinnaker. They do allow you to sail deeper than an asym and are a lot of fun to fly. I'm still figuring out how to properly trim one myself. Yesterday I was on a friend's boat flying the pole and spinnaker from my boat and we sailed from between a beam down to a deep run with great speed even on my blown out "practice spinnaker". On a beam heading into a broad reach we were doing over 5 knots through the water in about 6-7 knots of real wind.

For a symmetric spinnaker you want a "J-length" pole. On a Catalina 25 that is 10.5'. You can usually go up to 6" longer without a penalty. The pole on my Pearson 28-2 is slightly long and that extra length is helpful with the spinnaker and allows me to use is as a whisker pole too. It is slightly too short for that with my 135% genoa, but it works a lot better than no pole when sailing deep and wing on wing.

For a symmetric spinnaker you'll also need some additional lines:
* topping lift and downhaul for the pole
* spinnaker pole ring on the mast, preferably one that can be moved up and down the mast on a track.
* preferably "twings" for adjusting the angle of the after guy.

Plus all of the stuff you already need for the asym.

All of this adds up. I made it cheaper by finding a used pole ($50 instead of about $500), but my rigging costs for the spinnaker were still probably in the $500 range.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2013 : 06:04:04

Oh yeah, if optimum speed is the intent, the only way to go is with a symmetrical... it allows you to walk away from the competition... also flying it from the top of the mast (masthead) makes a huge difference in size too)...

If you are racing with a Cat 25, and have full crew, then the ONLY way an asym makes sense is if you also include a sprit.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2013 : 06:31:14

Thanks All

I do not race my 25. I have a whisker pole for the 150 but think it is not strong enough for a symmetrical spinnaker. I solo sail a lot and when the admiral is onboard she is not able to go on deck-she will take the tiller on occasion. Above is reason I am thinking about asymmetrical. I seem to get in very light air a lot when spending several days onboard. What I have not yet found is the size I need for the 25.

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2013 : 08:43:27

I think the North Sails 30 might just barely fit, but it would be very tight. The best way to tell is to run a measuring tape up your spinnaker halyard and measure where 30' ends on the headstay. It would be ideal if it were near the top of the bow pulpit, but I think you'll find it about halfway between the deck and the top of the bow pulpit.

For single handing you will want a sock on the asym spinnaker and an autopilot at a minimum.

Before buying anything I'd recommend going sailing with someone else who has one of these sails to see what is involved with jybing them. It can be easy to do single handed if everything goes smoothly, or it can be quite messy and you'll find yourself wanting a second or third hand.

You do need a spinnaker halyard (exits above the forestay), a jib halyard (exits below the forestay) won't work safely.

I often run my spinnaker when there are two people on board, even if one of them is sleeping. I don't do it when I'm singlehanding, especially if there is any traffic nearby.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2013 : 04:08:22

Alex

Good advice, Thanks. We have a light air forecast for today and I may have a chance to fly a spinnaker today from my boat. A friend has one that sails with me occasionally and offered to let me try it. He also has a drifter I may try. I added a spinnaker halyard this summer but it is on a sheave in the same location as the jib halyard in the masthead. I cannot remember for sure if they are above or below the headstay, I think above. I plan to install an auto pilot (before I go sailing in the Gulf) but only have a tiller clutch at this time.

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
Captain

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USA
279 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2013 : 08:28:25

I have three spinnakers aboard my C-25 and I have never flown any of them. One of these days, when the winds are light, I will rig and fly them. I have no idea if they are symetric or asymetric sails, however I am planning on tying up to the T-dock and with the help of some seasoned sailors, get them out of their bags and up.

any advice on the size or length of the sheets, lines, etc....??

R

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 12/27/2013 08:39:52

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2013 : 19:05:39

The jib halyard sheave is below/behind the forestay. A spinnaker sheave really needs to be above and in front. It can just be a block mounted to the very front of the masthead. Catalina has a pin there for this purpose. It is an easy project to do when someone is climbing the mast.

Spinnaker sheets are typically twice the boat length. So 100' of line, split into two 50' sheets. You don't need anything fancy, on our Catalina 25 we used 5/16" Novabraid XLE (a low end double braid line).

alex

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2013 : 05:29:19

I flew a borrowed asymmetrical spinnaker yesterday. I had to do some temporary rigging on the furled jib and sheet blocks but it all worked. The halyard sheave is below the forestay on the masthead so I will not be able to use a symmetrical spinnaker without some changes to the masthead. Made some jibes and tacks to see how it all worked. I was impressed with the asymmetrical so will probably get one some time this summer.

Edited by - hewebb on 12/29/2013 05:35:16

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/29/2013 : 07:48:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The halyard sheave is below the forestay on the masthead so I will not be able to use a symmetrical spinnaker without some changes to the masthead.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/2092_625/spinnaker-crane-c-25-c-250-c-27-c-28.cfm"]Masthead spinnaker crane[/url]

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2013 : 08:54:22

We have the exact masthead crane that Davy J links to. I wish it reached forward at least 1" further! That would probably eliminate the tendency for the chute halyard to wrap around the forestay.

Paul

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/29/2013 : 10:08:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hewebb
 I flew a borrowed asymmetrical spinnaker yesterday. I had to do some temporary rigging on the furled jib and sheet blocks but it all worked. The halyard sheave is below the forestay on the masthead so I will not be able to use a symmetrical spinnaker without some changes to the masthead. Made some jibes and tacks to see how it all worked.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Cool, glad you got some experience with one! They are a lot of fun.

You really need to move the halyard above the forestay for any spinnaker, symmetrical or asymmetrical. Otherwise the head of the spinnaker will chafe on the top of the forestay (or your furler if you have one) and get damaged fairly quickly. The Catalina 25 masthead makes it really easy to put a proper block forward of the forestay. If you have a furler then the masthead crane that Catalina Direct sells is even better because it projects the spinnaker a little farther forward and away from your furler's head swivel.

You also need to be very careful tacking an asymmetrical. The fabric won't last long rubbing on mast hardware. Since the boat won't sail much above 90 degrees on an asymmetrical anyway there is usually little reason to tack one.

Edited by - on

Merit 25
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2013 : 10:18:37

Masthead crane is probably the best way to go. If you're flying it from the jib sheave box then I'd look into adding some chafe guard so your halyard doesn't get chewed up.

Spinnaker sheets should be 2x the length of the boat. It's amazing how well this works out. I'd recommend new england ropes flightline in 5/16". Dyneema core, you can strip the cover, and polypropylene cover. They don't absorb water and are very light. Especially when you strip the cover.

The halyard wrapping on the forestay probably has more to do with sailing habits than equipment.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/29/2013 : 10:58:40

At a lower price point (about half the price of the good Flightline recommendation) this stuff is awesome for spinnaker halyards:
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/fse-robline-blue-dinghy-light

It is light and floats and has great grip. Plenty strong for spinnaker sheets. The only downside is that it is difficult to splice because the cover is quite stiff. If you just tie bowlines then everything is fine.

Edited by - on

Merit 25
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Response Posted - 12/30/2013 : 08:32:44

Nothing wrong with Robline, but it's heavier and stretches more than flightline. It's also not super expensive all things considered, diameter, and length of line.

The difference in price is closer to a 1/3 (33%) and I wouldn't recommend the dinghy line for sheets on a 25 footer. Actually anything 30' or less. Reason being, on smaller boats you usually are doing end for end gybes. This turns one of the sheets into a guy. I don't believe the robline is suited for a guy on a 25-30' boat in reaching conditions.

Using it as a spin halyard is completely fine, and a much better use. But so is sta-set for that matter.

Splicing is more difficult with the dinghy line, and tieing on sheets to a chute is only done when you don't plan on changing chutes on small boats. If you do a spin peel, you'll need a different attachment method.

All things to think about.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/30/2013 : 16:07:56

The more stretch in the halyard the better; its like a third trimmer.

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Merit 25
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 12/31/2013 : 08:58:10

I'm not sure if a 3rd trimmer is really what you want at the mast head. Constantly changing luff tension.

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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2013 : 09:54:01

The aspect of that Catalina Direct spinnaker crane that I didn't like is that the bale on the front allows the turning block to slide around to the side when the sail is pulling sideways (I want to be able to use a lightweight reaching sail off the same setup). This creates a sharp turn when the halyard gets to the sheave at the truck, and I think it would likely become a chafing problem. Instead, I put together an assembly that holds the turning block out front. It still allows full freedom for the halyard to run down in any direction, but it controls the lead back to the sheave. Granted, it adds significant weight to the top of the stick, but a Cat25 isn't a lightweight dinghy, so I doubt it would ever be a perceptible issue. I think this will also address the issue that Paul brought up above.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 12/31/2013 : 11:23:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Instead, I put together an assembly that holds the turning block out front.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's a nice looking solution, the block is definitely farther forward than the CD unit. Looks like it was not difficult to construct either.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This creates a sharp turn when the halyard gets to the sheave at the truck, and I think it would likely become a chafing problem. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm not sure I have experienced this problem. The block can swivel and is free to move to one side of the masthead or the other.

Are there three headsail halyards?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2013 : 18:16:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
 The aspect of that Catalina Direct spinnaker crane that I didn't like is that the bale on the front allows the turning block to slide around to the side when the sail is pulling sideways...This creates a sharp turn when the halyard gets to the sheave at the truck, and I think it would likely become a chafing problem.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lee,

Wouldn't a fixed block increase the chance of chafe as the spinnaker side of the line pulls sideways out of the block?

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/31/2013 : 19:30:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier

Lee,

Wouldn't a fixed block increase the chance of chafe as the spinnaker side of the line pulls sideways out of the block?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don;

The block can swing from one side to the other under the eye strap, and it can rotate on its own axis, giving it full unencumbered movement through any angle of pull. By the laws of physics it aligns automatically so that the tension in the halyard on both sides of the block are in plane with the block's sheave. In other words, the line leaves the block in both directions directly in line with the sheave and not over its edge: no chafe.

On the backside, the lead from that block to the sheave in the truck varies very little from port tack to stbd. tack: it doesn't vary much from the plane of that sheave. The potential problem that I see with the CD fitting is that the block slides around from one side of the bale to the other, and when it's at either side the halyard comes back to the truck sheave at a pretty sharp angle, and it probably chafes on the inner edges of the truck casting as well as the edges of the sheave. In fact, I'm wondering how one can prevent the halyard from accidentally jumping off the sheave; it's probably a relatively rare set of circumstances that might cause it, but if the truck sheave is able to slide from side to side on a clevis pin through the truck, and there's no retainer over the sheave, it's possible for a loose halyard to slip over the edge of the sheave and down onto the clevis pin (say, in a gusty wind while the boat is tossing in a seaway). I've put two sheaves on that pin, and I made a divider that sits between all three pairs of sheaves in the truck (the pair for the main halyard and topping lift, as well as the pair where two forward halyards come up out of the mast and the two new ones at the fwd end of the truck), so halyards jumping the sheaves is not a worry. BTW, the second fwd. halyard is just a spare that I haven't really thought of a good use for...

...yet.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

That's a nice looking solution, the block is definitely farther forward than the CD unit. Looks like it was not difficult to construct either.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks, Dave. No this isn't difficult to fabricate if one has some pretty basic tools and a place to play with them. SS is a little more challenging to work with than wood or mild steel, but I'm definitely a DIY'er myself, so this kind of assembly is by no means an "advanced" project. I posted the dimensions of what I built so anyone considering doing something like this would have a good starting point for their own ideas - I'm certain it could be improved.

But, importantly, a setup like this keeps the spinnaker halyard well forward of the forestay, and it opens up a lot of options. I'm working on something that I expect will produce some doubters, but once I've put it through its paces I'll post it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2013 : 23:20:08

Maybe I can't visualize it, but it would seem the block would be restricted if the spinnaker halyard exited the crane sideways and parallel to the top of the crane. I would think the block would have to lay flat (block cheeks parallel to the top of the crane) in this situation.

Edited by - dlucier on 12/31/2013 23:29:15

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2014 : 05:50:19

Lee

Thanks - I like your version. I printed the drawing and will make one before I add a spinnaker. Looks like I will need a swivel of some type on the spinnaker head. Not sure when I will get to this. I have spent so much time working on the boat that I haven't sailed it much.

Howard

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