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Story of a Catalina 22 sinking

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/01/2008 : 20:55:49

Seen this story on another forum. [url="http://towndock.net/news/sailboat-sinks-off-oriental"]clicky thing[/url]

1997 250 TR WK (sold)
1984 O'Day 28 (sold)
1979 SISU 22
Bath, NC.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 22:33:54

This could reactivate Derek Crawford's nightmares...

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 10:51:41

Lesson: In marginal conditions...

1) Put the companionway boards in place and close the hatch.
2) If you have an early vintage C25 secure the dumpster hatch.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 10:53:35

No Dave. I got over ours a long time ago.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 11:23:24

I was in Oriental over the weekend, putting the boat back together and heard people talking about it in town. All I can say is it was blowing a stink. We slept with the poptop open and no canvas or screens anywhere, not a fly or mosquito was to be seen. We raised the jib on the furler but decided it was to windy to wrestle a main we were not going to sail anyway and left the main for next time. The friend helping me wanted to practice motoring & docking and got all the excitement he needed fighting the wind around the docks and pilings.

I think the footnote said all I wanted to say:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Publisher’s Note: Sailing incidents bring out all sorts of village opinions. There will be lots of “they should of…”, but the best comment heard thus far came from Charlie Overcash, who simply said “That could of been me.” This writer indeed has accomplished some impressive boating mishaps over the years, fortunately beyond the sight of town. Combine a jammed sheet for a few seconds and the right instant gust, and that could be any of us. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 11:25:27

I've only every watched one boat sink and it was the same sort of story; the boat was knocked down hard, water entered over the side and into the companion way and the boat was gone in less than a minute. I don't remember the make of the boat, but I know it is 23 feet in length. The crew were four very experienced female sailors and the sinking happened during a regatta. It was an autumn day and needless to say, the wind was blowing very hard. I've been on other boats about that size that were knocked down with the mast all the way to the water, none of them sank.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 12:06:18

Lesson in blustery conditions:

Keep that mainsheet leading up over the tiller so you can reach it quickly. Nothing worse than trying to go down to grab the mainsheet and hold the tiller up to you at the same time...

I like having the tiller tamer assembly that keeps the mainsheet from sliding to the back of the tiller.

Course if it is really blowing I've got the main and jib sheets BOTH on my hands/lap.

A Knockdown in a swing keel can be very dangerous..

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 12:22:28

Well, if you are going to sink then 4' of water is a good place to do it.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 12:25:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 ...The friend helping me wanted to practice motoring & docking and got all the excitement he needed fighting the wind around the docks and pilings.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh... ya... "Can I practice docking your boat in this crazy wind?"

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 13:54:57

This is a scary thread. I know I'm prepared for safety but I also know when it gets really hairy I have forgotten all about being safe (night, thunderstorm, 25 miles offshore, race, etc.).

Between this and the numerous threads on Sailing Anarchy on MOB situations I think I'll start wearing my harness/lifejacket on the bow in races, and lock the fuel locker.

I have put barrel bolts on my lowest companionway board. Assuming fuel locker is locked, I wonder if you had just the lower board in and it was bolted, how much that would help in a knockdown?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 14:09:56

It reminds me of my semi-knockdown a few weeks ago on Erie. I have a fair amount of experience, but an unexpected gust at a critical time and a larger wave than had been running and down you go. We came through it better, but it was at least as much luck as timely response.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 15:46:10

Quote: "This is a scary thread. I know I'm prepared for safety but I also know when it gets really hairy I have forgotten all about being safe (night, thunderstorm, 25 miles offshore, race, etc.).

Between this and the numerous threads on Sailing Anarchy on MOB situations I think I'll start wearing my harness/lifejacket on the bow in races, and lock the fuel locker.

I have put barrel bolts on my lowest companionway board. Assuming fuel locker is locked, I wonder if you had just the lower board in and it was bolted, how much that would help in a knockdown?"

You should run all of your hatch boards when in bad weather. One good poop and you are done. This is why I like the heavy one piece Plexiglass models. You'll see down below and be able to pull the hatch and go below in an instant. You could also put a float on your mast, not that I would trust that much either.

Equally scarry is the POP TOP! Those two small hatch dogs will not keep the pop top in place in the case of a knockdown. The pop top is a liability on a C25 for these reasons. I installed two additional hatch dogs to my C25 and I still didn't like it. The reason I replaced the first set and started thinking about it was one day bouncing around in heavier seas and winds than I should have been out in, the pop top actually broke the bolt and the pop top actually jumped a tad going over every big wave. I rarely opened it and actually considered locking it permanently down with heavy bolts.

this is scarry - it can happen

sten

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 16:06:19

Last fall a 30' boat sank in about a minute at the end of a race near Annapolis after it suffered a knockdown and water poured in through the open hatch. We feel fairly secure sailing on sheltered waters with the C25 and its relatively high freeboard, but it happens too often. I agree with Sten that when the going starts to get rough, it's time to put in the hatchboards. If you need to go below, it's no big deal to remove them.

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 16:35:05

Looking at the pictures you can see a guy standing in what appears to be waist deep water. My thought are that he has a swing keel and perhaps run up on some shallows and the keel folded up. With a full set of sails set and a keel that is folded under the boat it would not take much to knock her over. Also noted the rudder gone. It might have been ripped off in the shallows.

This happened not to far from me so I know the wind was howling that day.

We had planned to cross the Pamlico Sound to Ocracoke Island the next day, only when we reached the sound it was still blowing hard out of the SW. There were still some nice size waves. We chose to post pone our 45 mile crossing for another time.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 17:53:59

Very good Tom! That could well be it. I'm familiar with that harbor as well and it does shoal up considerably just outside of the breakwater outside of the channel. Not somewhere I'd wanna be hauling ass thru under sail alone.

sten

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 18:20:36

I have 4 dogs on the pop top and keep them tight (usually). I've often thought about just bolting it down - I rarely raise it. Then I could get a cabin top traveller and dodger!

Where I sail it is benign - but not always!

Anyhow where I am going this summer it can get rough. Best be prepared. Had the mast down last weekend and went over everything!

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 19:34:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tom Potter
 We had planned to cross the Pamlico Sound to Ocracoke Island the next day, only when we reached the sound it was still blowing hard out of the SW. There were still some nice size waves. We chose to post pone our 45 mile crossing for another time.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> C'mon, it would have been hell of a crossing with the wind on the aft quarter

Not sure I' like to cross Ocracoke inlet with an outboard in that though. It was tough enough with a diesel on a "flat" day. Discretion and all, as I found out trying to beat storms home and that was not even the open Pamlico.

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 19:37:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 ...The friend helping me wanted to practice motoring & docking and got all the excitement he needed fighting the wind around the docks and pilings.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh... ya... "Can I practice docking your boat in this crazy wind?"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">to be fair, he has helped scrub mold, take the mast down, put it up, repair this-n-that and was crew on the "let's beat Gabriela home" cruise. I owe him a few.

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Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 21:10:54

Can someone educate me about Barrel Bolts on companionway boards?

I am not familiar what they are and how they work.

Other readers may be curious as well.

Much Obliged,
Deric

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 22:19:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Deric
 Can someone educate me about Barrel Bolts on companionway boards?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Put one on the inside of the top hatch board and none of the three can slide up and out.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/02/2008 22:23:41

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 00:17:16

I took Passage out to the mouth of the river last night and the current was ripping at about 2.5 kts at 345M as usual, but the wind was gusting out of the SW between 10 and 20, and had been for several hours.

After I got past the several chop zones, I hit what I thought was the usual LI Sound swell - 4-6 footers. But there was something different about them - they were tightly spaced, steep and breaking. This area extended for several hundred yards in each direction.

I was originally bow to waves, and that was not bad - a couple of splashes came over the bow and hit the cockpit. Poptop was closed but I had no crib boards in. No water got into the cabin.

Then I decided to try to get out of the swells and come about so that I could park it behind the nearby breakwater. Well, when I came around, I started getting broadsided by the swells, and the scarometer (inclinometer) hit +20, the -20, then back and forth. The oscillations increased - the waves must have been at the exact right frequency - so that the boat swung in sympathy with the waves.

So I finally got her around going down wind and then I alternately surfed and shipped water in over the transom - I was pooped! The freeboard and the one foot rise between the cockpit and cabin saved me.

At this point, I decided there was no benefit for me to go anywhere but back up into the river, out of the swell. As I did I was again broadside to the swell, and I got rocked but soon I was out of trouble, back in the flats.

That condition was trouble, and I hope never to see that again!

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 07:51:47

Bruce: Were the waves and wind opposing the current? That'll shorten and steepen them dramatically, especially where the current is squirting around a point or jetty. You can predict that situation by wind strength/duration and tidal direction--it'll happen again. You can really see it happen over here at The Race and at Plum Gut--it can look like a giant washing machine, with big standing waves throwing water into the air!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/03/2008 08:03:38

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:03:10

Fun Place - The Race! good golly, when the current opposes the wind, you are gonna be in for a good ride for sure. Nearly swamped my C25 outboard in similar conditions. Don't like to go thru it in Lysistrata. I have been slowed to two knots motorsailing... Inlets and closed in bays wherein lake type conditions are created are my most dreaded conditions. Lake sailors get a lot of respect from me, as they often deal with smaller waves, just more of them. Short chop sucks. Ocean chop under moderate conditions is rather easy to deal with. LI Sound and the Cheasy are both good examples of wind, current and wave conditions affecting everything. Even in places like Oriental where there is no real tide to speak of, there is a tide influenced by the wind - the short chop can really be a lot like when crossing Ablemare sound... I'll take 7 foot seas in 20 knots of wind anyday compared to 15 knots and two to three foot seas in any of the aforementioned spots.

sten

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:57:35

Not many clubs stress the inshore boat specification rules for racing, and I don't have them with me here at work, but, they do state that among other things, a boat participating in an in-shore racing event must have hatch boards that lock in place. Jim uses a barrel bolt to keep the hatch from displacing from its position over the hatch boards. I use a standard hasp and loop secured with a carabiner. I have a similar arrangement on the starboard locker.

In my opinion securing the locker should be standard practice when under sail. The same for the hatch boards in rough weather, racing or not.

Edited by - aeckhart on 07/03/2008 13:58:21

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 14:07:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 ...In my opinion securing the locker should be standard practice when under sail...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good point--the "dumpster" is at least as serious an issue as the companionway in a knockdown--it opens to the bilge. If the boat goes over to port and the hatch flies open, the game could be over in less than a minute. I always kept an unlatched padlock on the dumpster hasp.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 14:37:24

To add some live data to Sten's point, right now the buoy off Montauk Point (in the Atlantic) is reporting 4.6' waves with a period of 6 seconds in 17.5 knot winds, while a buoy in Long Island Sound is reporting 1.3' at 2 seconds in 13.6 knot winds. The LIS waves will probably build to a little over 2' this afternoon (and will look more like 4'). Count off the seconds--you'll get the idea that LIS will feel a lot rougher to a 25' sailboat than the ocean off Montauk. And because of the shorter period, the LIS waves will look as tall or taller than the ocean waves.

Sten: Plum Gut, the narrow opening between Orient Point and Plum Island, with 100' underwater cliffs, can be worse than The Race!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/03/2008 14:46:23

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