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Kansas Twister repeats as National Champion

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/29/2008 : 17:34:45

I just got a call from Gary Shepard, the '05 National Champion, and he has reclaimed the title. My understanding is that Kansas Twister won 4 out of 5 races in predominantly light air; around 10 mph. The boat will have new owners on the first, it will now be skippered by a Brit in Kansas.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 06:58:00

Congratulations Gary,

I am looking forward to hearing more from Oklahoma and all the results.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 09:44:17

Congratulations Gary! I sure wish I could have been there.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 10:48:46

What a great name for a boat.

Congratulations.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 13:38:40

Here are some of the results from the race

Oklahoma City Boat Club
2008 Lighthouse Charity Regatta-Catalina 25 Nationals
Dated 6/28/2008 through 6/29/2008
Through Race #5 of 5
Fleet Sail Total Race1 Race2 Race3 Race4 Race5
Class Number Boat Name Skipper Points Place . . . . Pts Code . . Pts Code . . Pts Code . . Pts Code . . Pts Code
Catalina 25
Catalina 25 3879 Kansas Twister Gary Shepard 4 1 1 1 1 1 [2]
Catalina 25 1895 Turtle Herd Steve Meyer 8 2 2 [3] 2 3 1
Catalina 25 4237 My Harley Jeff Burke 12 3 3 2 [4] 4 3
Catalina 25 3098 Oblivious Carl Borgfeld 14 4 4 [5] 3 2 5
Catalina 25 3316 Autumn Mist Richard Lane 18 5 [5] 4 5 5 4
Catalina 25 1749 La Dolce Vita John Walters 24 6 6 6 6

6
Catalina 25 5938 McMagic Gay McMillan 28 7

7 8 6 7
Catalina 25 5170 Guacamaya Harlan Wright 29 8 7

7 7 8

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 15:38:50

Wow--very consistant results! I guess nobody there would doubt the overall places. Congrats to all!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2008 : 17:13:36

Were they all short rigs?

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 18:22:20

and the Capri results?

Edited by - on

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 19:16:03

How many Capri's entered and raced?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 21:48:02

I am very disappointed in the lack of information.
This Nationals does not seem to have had the connection with the Association that the prior ones have had. I do not understand the lack of a narrative and pictures.
I wonder how many of the racers were actually Association members, I do not recognize a single name as a contributor on this site. Mea Culpa, I supported the selection of this venue.

Edited by - on

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 23:24:49

My apologies for being direct, but the way this nationals went off was in the stars, Frank. It was a great attempt to move the venue, which was only proper. The fact is that if the Nationals is not going to be a stand-alone regatta in a "popular" location with a significant density of available participants, then it needs to be incorporated into premier regattas in locations such as in Cleveland, Charleston, Key West, Galveston, Chicago, Detroit, Florida, New England, and all over Califruity & the PNW. My opinion is that the board's practice of soliciting the membership for venue bids is really nothing more than a lack of apparent leadership. It always seems as though when there is a bright spot and enthusiastic activity within this association that has a lot of momentum; it never fails to be followed with a really bad decision by its leadership. It is hard to argue with recent history.

The obvious solution is that the board needs to be the tip of the spear in securing venue in place of receiving bids from membership, as well as participating in the operation of the nationals when and where it takes place. That being said, membership input should still be a large factor in the venue selection process. Hell, this way venues could be selected a few years out, and the association leadership would have the time and opportunity to boost participation for any given venue. It would be a lot of hard work at first, but would get easier as everything falls into line.

In regards to your comment about questioning racers association membership.....Ummm are not ALL nationals skippers required to be association members in good standing to be able to race in the nationals?

In any event, Congratulations to MR. Shepherd for the big win.

Edited by - saribella on 07/02/2008 23:25:28

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 23:56:01

where are the results?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 09:45:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by saribella
 My opinion is that the board's practice of soliciting the membership for venue bids is really nothing more than a lack of apparent leadership. It always seems as though when there is a bright spot and enthusiastic activity within this association that has a lot of momentum; it never fails to be followed with a really bad decision by its leadership. It is hard to argue with recent history.

The obvious solution is that the board needs to be the tip of the spear in securing venue in place of receiving bids from membership, as well as participating in the operation of the nationals when and where it takes place. That being said, membership input should still be a large factor in the venue selection process. Hell, this way venues could be selected a few years out, and the association leadership would have the time and opportunity to boost participation for any given venue. It would be a lot of hard work at first, but would get easier as everything falls into line. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In 1983 and 1984 the C25 racing rules provided that the winner of the C25 National Regatta had the right to choose the venue for the next year's event. At the National Association meeting after the 1984 event, I proposed that the National Association should determine the venue of its own Regatta, because the winner would generally be expected to choose his own lake, and, if he was good enough, the event would wither and die because people would soon tire of going to Podunk, Utah every year. Moreover, the Association should select the site that is in the Association's best interests. The winner should not be allowed to select the site that is in his own, personal, best interests. I believed that, to the extent possible, the event should move around the country each year, so that it would eventually be accessible to the best Catalina 25 racers everywhere, instead of just the ones within a few hundred miles of one location. The idea was to increase participation and interest in the event. At the 1984 meeting, I was elected Commodore, and solicited bids for the regatta for the first time. The other officers, without my participation, selected my club to host the 1985 National Regatta at Brookville Lake, in southern Indiana, and we had the largest number of C25s race at that event that had, or has to this day, ever competed in a C25 national regatta, 29 boats. We had boats attend from Ohio, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Iowa and Indiana.

We can't just pick any location where we'd like to hold the event, like Key West for example, and then send teams of advance men there to organize it. The Association doesn't have the financial resources to do it that way. We have to select a site where either a local club or an organizer is present who is willing to plan and organize the event for us. After the site selection process, the officers have very little to do with the presentation of the event, other than to assist the local organizer. Financially, the event must be self-sustaining, or very nearly so. The members have, time and again, indicated their insistence that the racers among them not be allowed to use any significant amount of Association funds to support the event. It is very desirable also if the site selected has a number of local C25s that are likely to participate in the event.

It would be nice if we could get 29 boats to attend every year, but we can't. Our boats are not one design racers which, by their nature, generate keen interest in competition, and they're out of production. Our boats are cruisers. Name another out of production 25' cruising boat that holds an annual National Regatta like ours, with similar attendance figures. Generally we see about 9-13 boats attend, sometimes more, and additional members don't bring their own boats, but attend and crew for others. Every event I have attended has been great fun.

By comparison, consider the Capris at Wyzata. They have lots of Capri 25s racing at Wyzata every year, but for the most part it is the same people racing against each other every year. We move the event around. Derek has raced at several events, and the best C25 racers in several different venues have had a chance to test their skills against him. The same is true of Bill Meinert and others. Wyzata gets more boats to an event, simply because they have a large contingent of them at their own lake, and they don't have to tow their boats to the event every year, but I like our system better.

Anyone who thinks he can organize a better event probably doesn't understand the nature of the beast, but is welcome to run for Commodore, and prove it.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 10:06:35

An excellent discourse, Steve, with which I heartily agree.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 10:58:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the event would wither and die because people would soon tire of going to Podunk, Utah every year<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

First, Podunk is in Michigan, not Utah.

Second, I do not know all of the politics involved over the years but it is clear to me that a race of 8 C25's - or any other boat - does not constitute a national championship by any reasonable standard. Heck, there are three of four times that many C25s on my little lake.

There are, what, 10,000 or so C25's in the USA and 8 show up for the national championship. Maybe it is time to bag the whole idea and let the racers continue their local racing and call it good. Eight boats is no national championship. It is sort of embarrassing.

I don't race. Criticize me if you wish but clearly the system is broken.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 11:53:08

OK you want someone to blame???? Blame me. For the last seven years I have raced at every National regatta coast to coast(except 2008), I have personally organized two of those events and have been for the last two years a board member and now Commodore. Next years Regatta which has already been selected will be held in San Francisco at the Berkeley Yatch Club, in conjunction with the C-22 Nationals at the same time, and also in conjunction with some other events, We have looked at combining our nationals with Major events, 2006 and 2007 were combined with The Race Week Venue in Cleveland, The 2008 was Combined with the Light House Charity Regatta in Oklahoma city, and the 2009 Will again be a combined race. You arm chair Admirals are great at pontificating your suggestions, but lack any leadership as far as I can see. Myself I have worked hard at many things but when I or the officers ask for help we run into the immature and unreasonable contributors like above. If you read the forum you will see posted a call for help for the C-25 Technical Editor I haven't heard anyone of you volunteer yet. If you are not willing to share what you call leadership with use and take responsibility for helping get through these things then please keep your opinions to yourself, they don't help. In August we will announce the call for new officers!!! Lets see if you will step up and lead.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 11:54:00

and where are the results? Anyone? Today maybee!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:40:38

Bill, I don't know if you are referring to my post. I am not criticizing the Association officials or anyone else. Undoubtedly there are hardworking volunteers who make this, and any, volunteer operation work.

My observation is that there were only 8 boats. Two members, including a past Commodore, are wondering where the regatta information is. We don't even know if the racers even belong to the Association and it seems they don't participate in the forums. The event seems disconnected from many here. Something clearly is not right and crowning the winner of an 8 boat race the "national champion" seems odd to me.

My personal theory is that 99% of C25/250 owners are daysailers and cruisers. They don't race. Nobody's fault. No one to blame. It's just the way it is. Even in the "heyday" there were only 29 boats.

My apologies if my post seemed to place blame. That was not my intent.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:45:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 [quote]I do not know all of the politics involved over the years but it is clear to me that a race of 8 C25's - or any other boat - does not constitute a national championship by any reasonable standard. Heck, there are three of four times that many C25s on my little lake.

There are, what, 10,000 or so C25's in the USA and 8 show up for the national championship. Maybe it is time to bag the whole idea and let the racers continue their local racing and call it good. Eight boats is no national championship. It is sort of embarrassing.

I don't race. Criticize me if you wish but clearly the system is broken.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you really want to be embarrassed, go out and race against any of our past national champions. If you give a moment's thought to it, it isn't a matter of how many boats are in the race - it's a matter of the skill of the skippers and crews. That's what is being tested. You could have a regatta in which all the skippers and crews are ordinary club racers. Such a race would hardly meet most of our expectations for a national event. Or, you could have a regatta in which all of the skippers and crews have the highest degree of skill, in which case the event would capture the attention of all the sailing world. Or, you could have an event like we have. In our event, we have some skippers and crews who would be competitive in any amateur racing venue, and others who are just very skilled, and still others who haven't raced much, but they want to participate and learn. This is our club, and our National regatta ought to be open to anyone who wants to participate. Those who have attended in the past, but who haven't won, will attest to the fact that they enjoyed the experience. The serious racers who attend are outstanding racers. We've found that the best racer from any given lake or sailing venue is likely to attend our regatta, but the second and third best racers don't attend. If Gary Shepard is constantly beating the second and third best racers at his lake, why would they make the effort to prep their boats and tow them to a distant location for the National Regatta, only to be beaten by him again? The most serious competitors at our National Regatta are the best of the C25 racers at each of their home lakes.

Since retiring, and moving from my little lake in southern Indiana to the Chesapeake Bay, I've been crewing a lot on a variety of boats, and have had an opportunity to crew for some of the best skippers on the Bay in different classes. What I've learned is that a good sailor from the boonies can be competitive with the best racers on the Bay. Our past champions would be outstanding racers in any venue, and they would be at the head of the pack, not bringing up the rear.

This year, 54 boats raced in the J24 National Regatta. Those are gung ho, highly competitive racers, and winning that event might launch a person to sailing stardom. If our C25s were racing thoroughbreds like the J24s, with all the excitement that they generate, we could probably get far more than 54 boats to attend our Nationals. By comparison with the Js, I was thrilled to see 22 boats attend our Nationals recently. That showed a genuine love for the sport and a camaraderie among the members. Name any similar cruising boat that has been able to generate such interest. I'm proud, not embarrassed, that our national champions are such outstanding sailors, and that all our members are welcome to attend and participate in the event, and to learn from them.

If you have 24-32 C25s sailing on your lake, you should put in a bid for the National Regatta, and see if any of them can catch the out-of-town boats that come to compete. If you still think they aren't true champions, it'll be a real eye-opener!

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 13:36:36

I suspect that each administration has very serious discussions about National Championships and venue selection. When I served as Commodore we felt that a rotating system East to Midwest to West would open Nationals to the broadest participation and allow people in each section an opportuntiy to sail in Nationals. I suspect that is all still true.

Then when Jim was Commodore, they decided to join other events and hold our Nationals in junction with those events. Organizing racing is simplier, and those that can trail and want to race can come.

As we discussed things back when we realized:

1. We are not a one design boat
2. Many (read that most) don't have a trailer to tow their boats
3. We are not a class that attracts the hot-shots, they sail J24's and other racing boats.
4. We are primarily a cruising boat that a relatively few race - eight in my yacht club, only two raced in our annual Long Distance Race - both won their individual class!
5. Gas prices make unreasonable for many to tow their boats any significant distance. that's even worse now!

So we hold a National Championship with several local club members and perhaps a few visitors present. Nine to twelve generally, with a few exceptions. But we invite all of the Association members, and all who have 25's to participate (after joining the Association). Our championship is open to all, if they want to be there. I've sailed with and against Steve and Derek and Gary, and they are all excellant skippers, top notch and do our classes proud.

Would it be nice to have 55 participate in our Nationals. ya, but its not going to happen. Each year we crown a national Champion and that skipper is our National Champion for the year, and we should be proud of him/her.

Well done Gary and Kansas Twister. You done good!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 18:43:03

My feeling when I was Commodore is that the Catalina 25/250 Nationals will eventually die out, probably sooner than later. These are not race boats, and never were. They are coastal cruisers and family day sailors. The Catalina 25 fleet is aging, the first boats are now 30 years old. Hot racers these days are not buying Catalina 25s and fixing them up! Look for these guys in Js, Melges or Flying Tigers.

We were lucky to find anyone that wanted to host the Nationals.

We decided to join up with big organized race events like Cleveland Race Week or Long Beach Race Week to lessen the work load on the host YC. Maybe some year we can get our own start in Newport - Ensenada or San Diego - Ensenada Wouldn't it be fun to have a National Champion determined by a 125 mile ocean race?! Think you can beat me?

Meanwhile if there is a yacht club out there that would like to host an event, please contact the officers.

As I always said to people who complained - please volunteer and run for office! Make it better.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 20:06:50

this is really stupid but, where are the results for the regatta? We had one member from our club go ( Capri 25 ) how many Capri 25's showed up. I had passed the national information allong to them , and if anyone diserves to be a national champion is them.
They have owned, and raced their Capri 25 sense new.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2008 : 08:02:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by saribella
 The obvious solution is that the board needs to be the tip of the spear in securing venue in place of receiving bids from membership, as well as participating in the operation of the nationals when and where it takes place.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And who exactly is going to pay for air fare, hotel accomodations, rental car, and food for the association team who you suggest should participate "when and where it takes place"?

As some of the others have stated, if you want a racing centric boat/association, this ain't it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2008 : 08:15:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Capri25
 "and the Capri results?"

"where are the results?"

"and where are the results? Anyone? Today maybee!"

"this is really stupid but, where are the results for the regatta?

We had one member from our club go ( Capri 25 ) how many Capri 25's showed up. I had passed the national information along to them, and if anyone diserves to be a national champion is them."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you don't know the results of the regatta, how can you conclude the Capri owner from your club should be the National Champion?

Anyway as far as the race results go, Google and about 10 seconds worth of my time produced this...

[url="http://www.okcboatclub.com/race/results/2008%20LCR%20C25.html"]2008 Lighthouse Charity Regatta[/url]

[url="http://www.okcboatclub.com/race/results/2008%20LCR-Keel.html"]2008 Lighthouse Charity Regatta - Keelboats[/url]

Edited by - dlucier on 07/06/2008 08:24:53

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2008 : 10:16:48

How many of the skipper's names do you recognize?

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2008 : 10:39:35

I looked these boats up in the Members area. Three of the eight are listed although one apparently has a new owner (5170). All of the three that are listed are standard rig, two with swing keel and one with fixed.

Catalina 25 3879 Kansas Twister (not listed)
Catalina 25 1895 Turtle Herd Steve Meyer (not listed)
Catalina 25 4237 My Harley Jeff Burke (not listed)
Catalina 25 3098 Oblivious Carl Borgfeld (fixed keel, standard rig)
Catalina 25 3316 Autumn Mist Richard Lane (swing keel, standard rig)
Catalina 25 1749 La Dolce Vita John Walters (not listed)
Catalina 25 5938 McMagic Gay McMillan (not listed)
Catalina 25 5170 Guacamaya Harlan Wright (swing keel, standard rig)

Edited by - on

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