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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/10/2003 : 13:12:42

Hi Buzz, and others,

In reading some recent posts about mast raising and lowering, you seem to have one of the best, most economical, easiest methods with your A-frame system. I'm going to have to lower my mast in a week or two, which I have been dreading. You posted recently on a similar topic a link to a post you wrote some time ago that really outlined the process with lots of great pics. However, do you, or anyone, have a good picture of how the A-frame attaches to the forward deck plate? In reading your description, which involves using a "nipple", I just can't visualize what you mean by that. A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.

And on the top of the A-frame, the picture shows what I would call a carabiner (sp?) clip attached to the top of the A-frame. Am I correcting in understanding that you attach the forestay to that carabiner, and you attach the rope to the carabiner as well that runs down to the bow, through a pulley, then back to the cockpit?

I know this topic has been talked to death, but neither my wife nor I have been able to fully make sense of the directions in your previous posts or the section in the Tech. Tips.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 13:27:23

Are you sailing at a regular location for you? At my club we have a launching hoist that people use to raise and lower the mast and we also have a simple pulley system set up. The simple system was done by the J24 fleet, they were tired of wairting around for we older folks. They put a crossmember near the top of a telephone pole on the road into the club. They have the baby hoist hanging from the cross member. They pull the trailer under it and wrap a line under the spreaders. After that it is fairly typical. The guy on the bitter end is on the ground and one or two people are on deck. Anyway if you sail at a regular location you might consider a baby hoist. I bet there are some old mainsheet sytems around for the lift mechanism and the crossmember will only be a couple of dollars. Don't forget the cleat on the telephone pole. They may even name the hoist after you!

Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 09/10/2003 13:28:13

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 13:43:08

That is a great idea, Frank. I'll forward it to the sailing club. And to answer your question, yes, I do sail in a regular location, however I would like to flexibility of a mobile system that I can take to Lake Erie and other places.

I really like your idea though.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1766 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 14:19:08

Hi Ben,

In reading some recent posts about mast raising and lowering, you seem to have one of the best, most economical, easiest methods with your A-frame system. I'm going to have to lower my mast in a week or two, which I have been dreading. You posted recently on a similar topic a link to a post you wrote some time ago that really outlined the process with lots of great pics. However, do you, or anyone, have a good picture of how the A-frame attaches to the forward deck plate? In reading your description, which involves using a "nipple", I just can't visualize what you mean by that. A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say. - Ben

I looked through my photos, and I don't have a good closeup of that attachment point. I tried to crop out and blow up a section of a photo that showed the connection, but it was just too grainy to be of much help.

It really is a "simple" connection ... you just bolt the "nipple" to the deck connection for the forward lower shroud. I've got to take my mast down to replace the anchor light bulb ... maybe as soon as late this afternoon. I'll be sure to take a close-up so you can see how the connection is made.

In the mean time, here is a photo I just took of the end of the A-frame with the nipple attachment point. The bolt you see on the bottom of the nipple goes through the chain plate eye where your forward lower shroud is normally attached:

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d731b3127cce8e6c723921760000001610" border=0>

And on the top of the A-frame, the picture shows what I would call a carabiner (sp?) clip attached to the top of the A-frame. Am I correcting in understanding that you attach the forestay to that carabiner, and you attach the rope to the carabiner as well that runs down to the bow, through a pulley, then back to the cockpit? - Ben

You are almost exactly right. When I first used this system I DID use the forestay ... however, I found it is easier to use the jib halyard instead. If you use the halyard to raise the mast, the forestay is free for you to attach at the bow ... you can leave the halyard and A-frame connected, and it helps get some slack in the forestay so it is easier to connect.

Well, I hope that all makes sense ... let me know if you have any questions & I'll see if I can help out.

Good luck!

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 14:31:33

Thanks Buzz, that does help tremendously. If you are able to get a close-up picture of the A-frame attached to the deck plate, that would be perfect, but if not, I think I understand it enough to make it work. One more think, however, to me, the "nipple" simply looks like a sawed-off pipe (maybe 3/4 inch diam.) with a through-bolt holding it onto the A-frame, and another through-bolt to attach to the chainplate.

Thanks again. You have no idea how much anxiety this system will save me.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Sid
Navigator

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129 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 15:25:48

The part Buzz refers to actually goes by the name pipe"nipple" at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. When you pick up the conduit and bolts for the frame, head over to the plumbing section and ask for a 1"x3" pipe nipple and they should point you to the right part. It'll be threaded but will save you from buying a full 10' stick of pipe to make your own 6".

77 C25 SK #21

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1766 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 15:26:16

Thanks Buzz, that does help tremendously. If you are able to get a close-up picture of the A-frame attached to the deck plate, that would be perfect, but if not, I think I understand it enough to make it work. One more thing, however, to me, the "nipple" simply looks like a sawed-off pipe (maybe 3/4 inch diam.) with a through-bolt holding it onto the A-frame, and another through-bolt to attach to the chainplate.

Hi Ben,

'Glad the photo helped. I'm running late, and I might not make it to the boat today ... tomorrow there are supposed to be thunderstorms in the area, so I might not be able to get the mast down tomorrow either ... so, I'm glad things are a little clearer for you, 'cause I might not be able to get a photo any time soon.

Yes, the "nipple" is nothing more than a piece of sawed-off pipe ... I don't know how it got to be called a nipple, but the Home Depot folks will know what you're asking for if you use that term. I suppose you could make your own by sawing pieces of pipe, but they are cheap ... personally, I'd rather buy a couple than to do all that sawing.

OK ... I guess you're just about all set ... let me know if you've got any other questions. I've never regretted building one of these contraptions, and I predict you'll like it, too.

Good luck!

BTW ... Sid posted his comment while I was composing mine ... I was able to find the nipples at Home Depot, and they weren't threaded ... maybe you'll be able to do the same.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - buzz maring on 09/10/2003 15:30:36

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 15:47:04

Excellent. Thanks for you help, Buzz, Sid and everyone else. I hope the storms clear off for you soon, Buzz, so you can take your mast down and then get back out sailing.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 17:03:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In reading some recent posts about mast raising and lowering, you seem to have one of the best, most economical, easiest methods with your A-frame system....You posted recently on a similar topic a link to a post you wrote some time ago that really outlined the process with lots of great pics.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Can someone direct me to this link or previous post, please?

Thanks,

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1766 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 17:46:55

Hi J.B.,

Here is a link to that topic:

[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3633"]Mast Raising System[/url]

You can also check the Tech Tips under "Bear's Abode" ... that's where the original idea came from.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

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Kip C
Navigator

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USA
243 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 21:37:24

Buzz,

What did you use to flatten the ends of conduit? It looks like you may have used a vise. Did you use 3/4 or 1'' conduit. I may have missed something, but if you could show us a picture of where the halyard and line clip on, that would be great.

Thank,

Kip Casada

'90 C25 #6021
SR/WK

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 22:04:16

The A frame gin pole is a great way to go... but, I have to respect those who questioned the need for lateral stability. A single handed mast raising system using a gin pole NEEDs lateral stays. Its not just a cross wind that could be a problem, a slightly unlevel parking lot or a boat going by causing some wake could be and likely would be a serious problem.

One idea for them is to use two pieces of line made to a harness that wraps the mast and will haul to near the spreaders by the main halyard. The lines should lead to the boats beam, lateral of the mast and secure in some way. It's likely that there will be a slight rotation discrepancy of the arc of travel which would require the lines be the length of the longest radius of turn. To overcome the lines being short for other sections of the arc, parallel the lines with strong bungee lines that are short enough to keep good tension.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr5.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1766 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 22:24:13

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Buzz,

What did you use to flatten the ends of conduit? It looks like you may have used a vise. Did you use 3/4 or 1'' conduit. I may have missed something, but if you could show us a picture of where the halyard and line clip on, that would be great.

Thank,

Kip Casada <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hi Kip,

Yes, I started the flattening with a vice, and I finished it off with a 3# sledge hammer.

I used 1" rigid conduit.

Here is a close-up of the end ... you simply hook the jib halyard and your pulling line onto the carabiner:

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d910b3127cce8b8920c712f40000001610" border=0>

It looks like this ... you can see the jib halyard above the tip of the A-frame, and the pulling line below the A-frame:

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d910b3127cce8b892049127a0000001610" border=0>

The line goes to a block at the bow (I attach the block with the snap shackle that is normally used for attaching the jib tack), then it turns back to the cabin top winch (BTW, you can also run the line to a cockpit winch):

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d910b3127cce8b89238fd3150000001610" border=0>

'Hope that helps ... let me know if you've got any other questions.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

Kip C
Navigator

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USA
243 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 06:59:11

Instead of having to buy a block and pulling line, you could use your main sheet as long as the line is long enough.

Kip Casada

'90 C25 #6021
SR/WK

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 09:34:27

Trivia.....

Growing up sailing in Holland, many folks had a rig as described above permanently installed. It was known as a "bokkepoot" which is the word for the leg of a male goat, and also the name of a chocolate dipped cookie.....but I digress.

The backends of the bokkepoot were attached to eyes welded on plates, bolted to the deck. The headstay was attached to the front, which was in turn either shackled to the stemhead, or attached with a pully system. The whole thing was usually done in stainless steel. And, booms were set up to stay on, with the mast able to go to about 45 degrees.

Holland is littered with bridges across the waterways. Many are fixed, and low. Railroad tressles would open on a schedule, lots of waiting was involved. Much more cruising ground would open if one could easily lower and raise the mast.

Many times I would observe a boat steaming up to a bridge with father casually standing at the tiller. (Wheels? No wheels. Also no furlers, and no furler lines to get in the way.) Couple of kids and/or mom would lower the mast about halfway on the fly, either with the pully, or if it wasn't too heavy a mast, just leaning on the bokkepoot. Once past the bridge the thing would zoom back up, sails would go up, engine off....everyhting a well coordinated seemless manoeuver, and a joy to watch.

As a final thought on this, some of these boats had tall mast foot mounts.(Tabernacles) They would come a foot or more up off the deck, and provided needed lateral support. Something that could easily be manufactured for our boats......I also seem to recall that lower shrouds on some boats were designed and placed to stay taught enough quite a ways down.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/11/2003 09:47:13

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 09:58:34

Buzz, with the carabiner mounted 'on top'... do you get 'foulng' or interference between the lines and the flattened ends of the tubing?

Seems like it would be "smoother" to have the carabiner (or whatever you used) mounted "inside" the triangle. I suppose that would introduce the issue of having to feed the raising lines inside the triangle too.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1766 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 12:21:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Buzz, with the carabiner mounted 'on top'... do you get 'foulng' or interference between the lines and the flattened ends of the tubing?

Seems like it would be "smoother" to have the carabiner (or whatever you used) mounted "inside" the triangle. I suppose that would introduce the issue of having to feed the raising lines inside the triangle too.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hi Bruce,

I've never had any fouling at the apex of the A-frame. I've been pondering your suggestion of putting the carabiner (or other attachment point) inside the triangle, and for the life of me I can't see how it would either improve or detract from the process ... I just don't know. <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

The main fouling concern is with the backstay and shrouds ... you've got to make sure they are following the mast up without hanging on anything, just as you do when you step the mast by hand. The nice thing about the A-frame is that you can cleat off the pulling line and stop in the middle of the process to untangle the backstay or shrouds should they get hung up.

In fact, I routinely stop the raising process when the mast is at about a 45-degree angle just to make sure everything is going in the right direction. If you are raising the mast by yourself with this system (i.e., no one is holding the mast), once the mast gets fairly close to being vertical it will pop into place without any further pulling ... that's why I make sure the backstay and shrouds are OK before it gets to that point.

I remember a photo that Don Lucier posted (I think it was Don) of a mast-raising that didn't go so well (BTW, they were doing it by hand, not with an A-frame or gin pole). As I recall, one of the shrouds was hung on something, they didn't see it, and the result was a severely bent spreader.

So, like virtually everything we do with our boats ... sailing, docking, mast raising, etc. ... thorough planning can save you a lot of grief.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1766 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2003 : 13:52:38

I dropped the mast yesterday to do some work on it ... 'snapped this photo of the A-frame connected to the forward lower shroud chainplate:

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d733b3127cce8e07b29b70120000001610" border=0>

'Hope that clears up how the A-frame attaches to the deck.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2003 : 16:31:21

Buzz

You should manufacture these things! i would buy one

Frank R
84 C25 SK

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2003 : 16:46:36

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Buzz

You should manufacture these things! i would buy one
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Ditto!

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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