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Catalina Smile Returned

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JanS48
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USA
141 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/29/2023 : 21:14:50

Greetings everyone, I've had my C25 seven years now, when I got it it had the notorious Cataline Smile. Per instructions from here I ground it out and used the stuff that hardens like a hockey puck G-Flex - it's worked well. However this year I see a crack appearing along the line of the original repair, I was planning on doing the same fix - grinding it out some and filling it in. But... it now has a 'cousin' I'm seeing a crack line on the stern of the keel at about the same latitude as the original smile about 3" long - not at all deep but a crack for sure. I was planning on doing the same repair.
Anyone else seen this ? Is it cause for grave concern?
I'm super careful not to hit anything but the boat does get a hard pounding on occasion when I'm offshore and a stiff wind blows up.
Thanks in advance
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2023 : 09:43:17

How are your keel bolts and the core they go through? I believe your vintage has the cast iron keel and mild steel bolts, which generally look a little grim by now. (1984(?) and after have encapsulated lead with SS bolts.) All vintages have a wood core in the base of the keel trunk, which can suffer from seepage from inside or out. As it softens, the keel obviously can move a little. I haven't heard of a single case here of one falling off,

but Catalina Direct has a kit for adding (not replacing) bolts. I believe some have replaced the core with something other than wood. (My theory is that the "smile" is often caused by compression of that core, allowing the the keel, especially the forward part, to pull down a tiny bit. But then there's probably more weight on the aft bolts due to the raked shape, so the smile there could be expected.)

But now I've said more than I know... There are lots of discussions on this you can "Search" for.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/01/2023 09:50:37

JanS48
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USA
141 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2023 : 12:13:44

Thanks for the reply, not I but one of the previous owners replaced the original keel bolt nuts with SS ones. Not sure I'd agree with that decision since SS is not exactly steel. The protruding thread now does indeed look pretty sad but the SS nuts are intact still. For now I'm going to go with nobody has lost a keel 'yet'. I'm going to grind out the cracks and fill with the G-Flex again.

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2023 : 13:31:26

Ya, I think I'd put steel nuts on for similar metals, and then slather them with some sort of goop (roofing cement?) to inhibit rust. The SS nuts could accelerate the rusting of the bolt threads. I'd say cruddy looking nuts are still functional and less important than solid bolts and threads. To take the SS nuts off, I'd sloak then in penetrating oil to minimize thread damage. If they don't unscrew fairly easily, I'd fuggetaboutit.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/02/2023 13:35:33

JanS48
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USA
141 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2023 : 21:07:13

I'm going with the latter suggestion trying to remove the SS nuts is too risky in my humble opinion. I may eventually opt for the new bolt kit if I can find someone to install it.
Again, thanks for the reply.
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2023 : 03:29:52

I had a similar problem with my 1986 Catalina 25.
The glass near the keel stem was cracking allowing seawater to get to the iron and create the smile.
The SS Bolts looked good, and I saw no rot in the stem keel.
I cleared the paint off for 4" above, below and to either side of the crack.
I covered the crack with 3M 5200 reinforced with fiberglass wall patching tape.
Granted, it's not quite as smooth as adding new fiberglass, but the patched material has a little flex to it .
After drying, it needs a primer coat before it will take the anti-fouling paint.
It's not the prettiest patch, but it's underwater, and I don't race.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2023 : 04:31:54

FWIW -- My boat had a slight smile and I had it professionally fixed when I did a soda blast, faring (steel keel), barrier coat and new anti fouling. That was in 2011. In 2020 noticed the smile faintly returning. My guess is that the wood is the issue and should be replaced. Based on the age of the boat as well as the owner will let the eventual next owner deal with the issue unless it gets much worse quickly. Some have dropped the keel, replaced wood and then replaced keel bolts with new -- a very labor intense and difficult job especially for a DIY project. I would simply enjoy using her as is.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2023 : 13:38:09

quote:
Originally posted by JanS48

...trying to remove the SS nuts is too risky in my humble opinion.

I'd probably agree after seeing the situation... You don't want to risk damaging the rusting threads.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

JanS48
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
141 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2023 : 20:14:36

More info:
The original smile was on the port side, it seems the returning smile to that location was mainly in the paint, when grinding it out the G-Flex was very much in-tact with no new cracks. I'm very impressed with G-Flex. On the starboard side the crack had elongated some so the fix was to grind it out and fill with G-flex. The cracks on the stern of the keel are about 6" in long on both sides starting at the back and running forward. When grinding out I'm guessing them to be about a 32nd in wide. It appears the cracks to be where some white material was meeting the iron. My fix was to grind it clean and fill with G-Flex. I'm thinking the crack was caused by a minor movement of the keel. Next season when I pull the boat for the season we'll see how things look - I'm hoping G-flex does it's magic.
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2023 : 18:10:37

Jan, gotta ask, what is "g-flex" and/or who makes it?

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

JanS48
Navigator

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USA
141 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2023 : 19:32:50

G-Flex is a West Marine product. It's a 2 part epoxy product. It takes 24 hrs to harden completely and hardens to the consistency of a hocky puck. It comes in two good size tubes you mix equal parts together it's an amber color when mixed. So far I've fixed 4 keel cracks - 7 years apart and the product was still working fine and I've still got some left. I originally got the G-Flex recommendation from this group.
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2023 : 16:00:00

G-Flex--good stuff--made by West System (not West Marine). Resilience is its defining characteristic. Otherwise, it's like working with normal epoxy--thickening, etc... Adhesion is about the same. The working time is comparatively long, and the curing time is something like 24 hours.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/10/2023 16:01:31

JanS48
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USA
141 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2023 : 16:46:55

Well, the G-flex did it's magic, the fixes to the aft 'smiles' held up just fine after pulling for the season and this was after a season of much off-shore pounding.

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2023 : 04:40:04

I repaired my Catalina smile differently.
I ground down the area of the cracks to bare fiberglass. Be careful, the dust from the antifouling paint can be poisonous.
I then smeared a layer of 3M 4200 over the cracks. Then I put a layer of fiberglass tape over the 4200. I just used the fiberglass tape for wall repair. Then another layer of 4200 over that, smoothed with a wall board knife.
I let it dry for about a week, and then painted over when I painted the hull.
The keel bolts are in excellent shape.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2023 : 19:26:50

I see your boat at NCM all the time. Limerick this year is next to the rigging shop. My keel bolts are in terrible shape, as one person said "the only thing keeping them there is force of habit" One suggestion NCM made was to do what it seems you did: clear out around the crack, put 3M 5200 in, then wrap fiberglass cloth/resin over the entire keel/hull connection areal. Is that what you did?

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2023 : 19:31:21

As background, in 2012 the hull was powder blasted, faired and "smile" went away. 2019 on forward it started to reappear, just slightly. Remained that way until this past year where it significantly expanded to @6 inches. Interesting as 2023 because of weather and schedule I did not sail between June and October -- she was at mooring only!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2023 : 08:56:51

We have two different categories of keel here: Solid cast iron bolted to the fiberglass stub with mild steel bolts (up to around 1983?), and lead encapsulated in some sort of fiberous "cake" and attached with stainless steel bolts (at least from 1985 on like mine). The "cake" appeared to be intended to reproduce the shape of the iron keel over the denser (therefore smaller) lead casting. I've only seen "smiles" on the iron versions.

As for Peter's situation, 5200 is tough stuff good for sealing joints like that, but I wouldn't count on it to hold a 1,900 lb. iron lever to a fiberglass hull--nor even Gflex or a fiberglass wrap. The bolts have to be up to the task, and the bottom of the stub (wood cored?) should be solid. If they're not, even pitching and rocking on a mooring could create some movement to induce the "smile."

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

SKS
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2023 : 21:57:45

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

I see your boat at NCM all the time. Limerick this year is next to the rigging shop. My keel bolts are in terrible shape, as one person said "the only thing keeping them there is force of habit" One suggestion NCM made was to do what it seems you did: clear out around the crack, put 3M 5200 in, then wrap fiberglass cloth/resin over the entire keel/hull connection areal. Is that what you did?

No, I used fiberglass wall board tape and just coated the area of the cracks using 4200. 5200 would work just as well. I'll look for Limerick next time I'm at the marina. Where do you keep your boat in the summer? Frankly, it's getting too expensive at NCM. I may sell Lady E in 2024.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

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