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Rudder Repair

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Altman554
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/01/2019 : 15:01:58

I have a 1987 Catalina 25 and have noticed cracks in the rudder coating. I want to repair it over the winter, but am unsure what materials to use. The coating looks like it might be vinyl, but I am not sure. Thought someone here might be able to provide some insight. Respectfully,

Steve

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2019 : 16:16:59

First, bring it indoors for the winter, so it won't freeze and any moisture that might be inside will have a chance to dry out.

Secondly, the necessary repair depends on how bad the crack is. A photo or two will help us give better advice.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2019 : 22:10:19

Steve, this is a relatively common complaint with the Catalina 25 rudders. What tends to happen in northern climates in the fall is the rudder�s foam core absorbs water while afloat, then the boat is hauled at season�s end. The temperatures drop below freezing at night, and warm during the fading fall days. Overnight, the water expands as it freezes bursting the surface coat, then contracts during the daylight hours. Rainwater can infiltrate the cracks and make the freeze-thaw process worse.

The moral of this story is once your boat is hauled, remove your rudder immediately and take it home. I keep mine in my attached garage which stays warm from the house during the cold nights in mid- to late-fall. The rudder dries out by the time super cold weather hits, averting the freeze-thaw process.

The repair is a matter of personal taste. You can use runny epoxy and clamps to �glue� the pieces back together. You can grind out the cracks and crevices and fill with epoxy, then replace the gel-coat. Matching color is tough. You can use Marine-Tex to fill the cracks. Or you could fill, fair, paint. Some folks used the situation to replace their conventional rudder with a Catalina Direct balanced rudder.

There have been several approaches over the years depending on the owner�s taste. You can use the search tool to find individual cases and postings.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Altman554
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2019 : 16:45:00

Thanks for the input. Will try to post some photos in the next couple of days. The cracks are up by the tiller. I was unsure if epoxy would stick to vinyl. Appreciate the insight. Respectfully,

Steve

Steve

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2019 : 16:57:04

Steve, The Catalina rudders are not vinyl. They are made with a foam core with a fiberglass shell. Your 87 probably came with the balanced rudder. My 87 did.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2019 : 19:39:44

Very odd that the cracks are near the top by the tiller. Water intrusion would be nil due to immersion, however rainwater entering near the bolt hole could be the culprit. If the cracks are �hairline�, Dave Stinkpotter usually recommends Cap�n Tolley�s Creeping Crack Cure. See Defender

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2019 : 21:16:16

For a lot more valuable advice check the archives for this forum; cracked rudder repairs have been discussed extensively. Try different word-strings for searches.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2019 : 22:24:50

When looking at old posts on this, be aware that original equipment rudders up to about 1986 (?) had wood cored fiberglass heads down to below the lower pintle, and solid fiberglass below that. The later �balanced� design has foam core throughout, in a fiberglass shell covered with gelcoat. The wood cores are prone to rot and breaking at the lower pintle. The foam core can suffer from freezing and from expansion from solar energy.

In addition to photos, it might help to know how deep the cracks are. If they�re just in the gelcoat, you can get gelcoat patch in a tube from West Marine and elsewhere. If they�re through the fiberglass shell (less likely), we should see pix. Do they radiate out from the metal sleeve for the tiller bolt? From the pintles? Or are they along the seam between the two halves of the fiberglass shell?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2019 : 06:53:19

...and to clarify what the newer, factory "balanced" rudder is, it has two "steps" on the leading edge that put some of its underwater area ahead of an imaginary line through the pintles. The original, wood-cored rudder had no steps. I'm not sure of the year the balanced rudder became factory equipment ('87 or '88?), and many of the older models have been replaced with the newer, and with solid plastic ones from a third parties.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2019 : 07:19:14

<< but am unsure what materials to use >>

I used West Systems G-Flex. They said it sticks to anything, it is flexible and you mix it 1:1.

Mine seems fine. It is below the waterline. We do not have any freezing to speak of here so it's not too tricky.

The only thing I might have done differently is heat up the rudder and use a thin resin (thinned by warming )poured into the core, then the G-flex, sanding and then some gelcoat over it.

Before Ive done projects with regular resin,
added to much hardner the patch would crack.
Added too little hardner and it would not kick

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Altman554
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2019 : 21:21:15

Sorry it has taken so long to provide pictures. Let�s hope this works. Respectfully,

<img src=�https://link.shutterfly.com/OxEXpTSIg2� border=0>

Steve

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2019 : 07:06:59

Those appear to be merely superficial cracks in the gelcoat. I'd gouge them out very slightly, to make them a little wider and deeper. Break away the loose material. Then tape around their perimeter with masking tape so you don't smear filler over an unnecessarily wide area. Then I'd fill them with white Marine Tex.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/09/2019 07:09:01

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2019 : 09:39:38

quote:
Those appear to be merely superficial cracks in the gelcoat. I'd gouge them out very slightly, to make them a little wider and deeper. Break away the loose material. Then tape around their perimeter with masking tape so you don't smear filler over an unnecessarily wide area. Then I'd fill them with white Marine Tex

I agree. Looks like common gelcoat cracks in the head area. Not sure what is going on down in the anti fouling area. Is that just chipping AF paint? Hard to tell in the photo.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Altman554
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2019 : 20:07:37

The anti-fouling on the rudder is just patches where the anti-fouling I put on a year ago has come loose. The previous anti-fouling (blue) is what you see.

Steve

Khaine
Deckhand

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Canada
10 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2022 : 19:12:42

I�m reviving this thread to ask about a rudder repair I�m planning to start. As you can see from the images below, I have a 3-4 inch crack that I would like to fill. I plan to grind out the crack to see how deep it goes but from the photos it appears it goes beyond the gel coat and into the glass. Then I�ll need to fill the void - with epoxy?. Does this make sense? It�s above the waterline so I don�t think I have issues with water intrusion. Any specific products you would recommend to fill the void? TIA from a new sailor!

https://ibb.co/ZNvFYyQ
https://ibb.co/4dGFjCV

2002 Catalina 250 WK
Lake Ontario

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2022 : 13:23:19

FWIW -- When I got my boat in 2007 the rudder was delaminating. I choose to go with a "balanced" rudder. At the time they offered a fiberglass version, constructed similarly to the original just with the improved shape, as well as an epoxy version. I choose the epoxy version as: 1.it could not get moisture intrusion; and 2. similar to what is used on racing dingys which proved durable. All these years later I am pleased with my selection. Ruddercraft was the mfg. although I bought it through Catalina Direct.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2022 : 13:42:48

It looks like the gel coat is chipping away, but it doesn't look like there's any intrusion into the fiberglass. I'd suggest you use a dremel or similar tool to carefully cut around the cracked gel coat, and scrape out the old gel coat. Then fill the area with white Marine Tex. The white might not match perfectly, but it should be very close.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2022 : 21:09:56

Mr Khaine,

Thank for updating your profile.
I see you have a 2002 C250WK
I have a 2004 C250WB

My factory rudder had the same problem (above the waterline).
I bought my boat new and took my rudder to the Catalina dealer.
They fixed the rudder under warranty.
The dealer told me that for a few years the rudder gelcoat was too thick and would crack when the rudder would flex.
They removed the gelcoat, filled and applied new gelcoat.

Your plan for epoxy and gelcoat is a good one.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Khaine
Deckhand

Members Avatar

Canada
10 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2022 : 13:12:17

Thanks Everyone for the feedback. I�ll post some photos of my progress here later in case it�s beneficial for others.

I am a little concerned that the damage might be deeper than expected. If you look closely at the images there appears to be a vertical crack �beneath� the zigzag crack in the gel coat. We�ll see what it looks like when I grind it out. It sounds like the fix is similar in either case - epoxy it together and fill the void.

I�ve read mixed reports about whether gelcoat will adhere properly to epoxy. I may skip the gelcoat anyway if using the white Marine Tex. It�s not in a visible spot so an exact colour/texture match is not critical. Any issues with forgoing the gelcoat?

2002 Catalina 250 WK
Lake Ontario

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2022 : 14:35:19

Gelcoat is aesthetic. Fiberglass is translucent. Gelcoat prevents people from seeing shadows of occupants moving around inside the boat. It creates a shiny, smoothe surface, covers blemishes and adds color.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2022 : 17:08:30

I zoomed in and see troubling evidence. The diagonal pattern of the gelcoat cracks suggest an outermost layer of woven glass roving has broken, and then there's the vertical crack you spotted in a lamination beneath that outer layer. I'm not familiar with the details of the construction of C-250 rudders, of which there are several versions. I'm guessing it has a foam core inside a fiberglass shell made from two molded sides that are "clamshelled" together. It appears that is the upper pintle in the photo, and the crack is above that--how about inside the pintle? I'd remove the pintle and check around the bolt holes. The pintles are where the most stress is on the blade.

This could be damage from freezing--moisture (rain) can get into the core from the pintle bolt holes, the tiller pin, or another crack such as between the two halves. Another cause of splitting can be expansion of the foam from the sun heating the bottom paint on the blade. If you store the boat out of the water, a painted rudder should be protected from direct sun exposure.

Let us know what you see... Future questions specific to C-250s are best posted on our C-250 forum, not the C-25 forum. There are many subtle differences, and the rudders are examples. And some C-250 folks might not be looking at C-25 discussions.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/07/2022 17:14:59

cat25
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2022 : 13:05:30

years ago I drilled out both rudder attachment holes to a 1 inch and 1/8 size. I removed the foam in that area, approx 5x5 inches, then I filled it with epoxy. it has held for all these years and is very strong, wanted to post a picture of it but can't seem to do it.

Ken
Chenango~
1990~TR~WK~C25~#6022
Candlewood Lake, Ct

Edited by - cat25 on 02/18/2022 07:34:48

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2022 : 19:13:40

Ken, there�s a trick to posting a picture on this forum and it catches even the most experienced forum members. The trick I use is don�t try to post a photo in your original post. Go ahead and post the comments to the forum, then edit your comments afterwards by selecting the paper and pencil icon above your post.
Once there, you�ll be able to use �Forum Code� to post pictures.

Up above your post here you�ll see the Format section. You�ll see a box with the globe and a link, a circular arrow around an envelope and a carat arrow next to a picture.
Click the last box and this will set you up to insert a picture.
An �escape code� [ img][/ img] will appear. (note there will no spaces in the escape code)
In between the two sets of code you will insert your image code.
The image code syntax is typically of the form: �http(s)://my*photo*website.com/somelongfolderpathname/thenameornumberofyourphoto.jpg�
Many image websites will not give you the image reference in this format. You really have to search around to find this canonical form.
Insert it within the code, then post your comments and that should work. Your code should look like this:
[img]http(s)://my*photo*website.com/somelongfolderpathname/thenameornumberofyourphoto.jpg[ /img]

I put the http in parentheses with the s because I can�t remember whether secure http works (?)

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 02/06/2022 19:57:06

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2022 : 05:17:16

I think the problem people have is that they are trying to post a photo directly from their phone.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2022 : 19:21:33

You�d have to turn your iPhone into a public webserver. Probably not a real good idea�

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

cat25
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2022 : 04:42:59

Thanks Bruce for the great tips, I will try that.
I was not trying from my iphone, I did add the picture to my
photo gallery and tried from there.
Would like to show what I did on my rudder so will try it
soon.

Ken
Chenango~
1990~TR~WK~C25~#6022
Candlewood Lake, Ct

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.