Association Forum - Damn windows

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Damn windows

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/27/2019 : 08:30:34

On our C25s our portlights are made of glass which is better than lexan/plexiglass, but the gaskets and frames are prone to leaking and failure. This exposes the cabintop core to wetness and rot.

Among us all has anybody figured out a way to replace the original portlights with a better system?

That might include eliminating the windows altogether and replacing with a single long strip of glass mounted in a fiberglass frame, or even some inventive alternative using lexan and teak trim with butyl tape.

I just have to believe there�s a better way that allows easier, more regular maintenance.
Any thoughts?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/27/2019 09:30:04

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2019 : 10:36:07

I think the best remedy is to install frameless windows. In the last model years Catalina installed them in the C25s. At least one of our members described how he installed them in his older Catalina 25. This is a photo of a 1989 C25 with them.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2019 : 15:11:29

Steve - they even look better. Do they come tinted?

I googled the entry and found this. http://catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=20442
OLarryR and JimB517, long time forum contributors provided their insights.

I did not find the photo you posted, however.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2019 : 16:02:02

The photo that I posted is just a photo of a random 1989 C25 that I googled.

I wouldn't bed them in 5200, in case you have to replace them in the future. I had the windows on my C&C 35 professionally replaced. They used Acrylic. You can get it tinted or untinted. Here's a link to a discussion of the subject of bedding compounds. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/best-bedding-sealant-1825.html

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/27/2019 16:05:33

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2019 : 18:03:11

Bruce, The later Catalina's like mine has the windows set into a recess like the boat in this video. You would probably have to make templates for your windows slightly larger than the opening then mount them on the outside because your boat doesn't have the recess molded into the fiberglass. You probably will have to have them made or buy the material yourself and cut them because as far a I know there isn't an off the shelf place to buy them. As always when bedding plastics to fiberglass the ONLY caulk you can use is Marine grade Silicon,(Not HD stuff) like Dow Corning 795 similar to Lifeseal. Also in the video he uses a tape called 3M VHB tape #5952 (Very high bond) to immediately bond the window to the boat without any screws or having to wait on cure times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyjxVUskd8

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/27/2019 18:04:23

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2019 : 18:55:43

Yeah Scott, It�s great that you have the newer portlights on your boat. I�m a big fan of Andy of Boatworks Today. I�ve seen a similar demo of the VHB 3M tape in a video from the SailBros.They made a very similar kind of windows, but a little more involved. See https://youtu.be/ZOgslcyLG10.
I realize that I don�t have the indentation like the later Catalinas. I�d have a few things to do to prep the openings.
1. Remove the old frames.
2. Clean out the core between the inner and outer skins.
3. Fill the gap with thickened epoxy and or fiberglass.
4. Make a trim piece for the inner side of the openings.
5. Prep the outside of the openings. Sand and flatten the materials.
6. Create the paper templates.
7. Select the plexiglass (thickness, tint, clear or translucent).
8. Proceed with the steps in the VHB tape procedure.

Scott, what thickness of the Lexan would you suggest? 1/4�, 5/16�, 3/8�, 7/16�?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2019 : 05:22:46

Bruce I would think 1/4' or 5/16 would be plenty thick. Since your windows will be surface mounted I would bevel the edge so the 795 caulk will have a pocket to fill into. My crude drawing is my idea below.

quote:
Fill the gap with thickened epoxy and or fiberglass

Here is a trick I saw done on a Capri. Most would remove the old wood if any then use 5200 to fill the gap. Well that can get rather expensive for the amount you will need. An alternative is to use Locktite PL Premium Polyurethane construction adhesive from the box store. Both are Polyurethane and Waterproof But the Locktite is only $5 a tube. I got this tip from from some guys that were replacing the windows on a Capri. They filled the gap with the Locktite then just smoothed the edge off with a finger. Next day it was rock solid. As to the interior trim maybe some automotive or RV vinyl trim? Have to look into that some more.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/28/2019 05:30:52

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2019 : 13:08:41

The portlights in the pic that Steve posted are beautiful and I could be fooled by the lighting but they do not appear to be original. All the '89's that I've seen, the acrylic is screwed, as well as sealed (silicon), to the cabin frame but over time, movement of the acrylic and/or cabin has often caused the acrylic to crack in the corners and tightening the screws often stripped the gelcoat/fiberglass into which they were screwed. After arguing with mine for years, I replaced the portlights just over the past few weeks following the approach proposed by Andy at Boatworks and outlined by Scott.

I removed the original portlights before buttoning up the boat last fall and took them to a shop (Vermont Plastic Specialties) here in town that among countless things, makes custom bobsled runs...cool. Anyway, they matched the thickness of the originals and let me choose the acrylic. They then used the old portlights to fabricate (router) the new ones. They charged me 1 hr of labor for four portlights which, with the acrylic, totaled about $95/portlight. Today actually is the first leak test of my efforts as I only removed the winter cover this past weekend. (Although slips and moorings opened up a couple of weeks ago, I would guess 95% of sailboats are still in the yard in this part of the lake...high water and a cold/wet spring has really delayed prep.)

The project is doable but was intense...unlike Andy, I was working under a winter cover w/ stanchions in place (I removed the aft lower stays) and having to squeeze between adjacent boats in the yard to access the workspace. As always the prep demanded the overwhelming majority of the time.

A few observations specific to my boat.
* I was surprised at how easily the original portlights came out. Once the screws were removed, I simply pushed on the acrylic from inside the cabin and they popped out with very little sealant adhering to them. Unlike most earlier boats, there is no open gap between the cabin and the liner.
* In contrast, removing the sealant from the gelcoat/frame was a bear. Hardware-store silicone release proved useless. Only patience, a razor blade and sanding with 180 grit paper proved successful.
* I cleaned the frames with MEK and then a 50% isopropyl solution before attaching the VHB. I used 3/4" tape and trimmed off the access (<1/16") with a razor/drywall knife. In hindsight, it would have been easier to use 1" tape so the material removed would hold together better.
* I taped off the surround in prep to add sealant after installing the portlights. Perhaps unlike Andy's situation, the frame on my boat was deeper than was filled by the acrylic and I did not want to fill all that space with black silicon serving no purpose so I guessed at what would allow a good seal and still be visually appealing.
* Installing the portlights was easy but demanded absolute focus. I penciled in alignment marks both at the top and sides of the frame and on the portlights to help but even with practice on each window, it proved trying. That VHB is amazing.
* The Dow 795 was as easy to work with as any silicone. I used Andy's tip to flatten the end of the nozzle which worked great. Despite efforts to form my own shaping tool, nothing worked except my finger dipped in a weak soap solution. I also quickly learned to go slow and QC my efforts to ensure there were no gaps between the sealant and the VHB under the acrylic. I was also grateful temps were in the upper 50's which gave me reasonable working time to apply the sealant and remove the tape before the silicon skinned over.

They look great....time will tell.

Perhaps more of interest to your situation Bruce, as I was working, a gentlemen prepping his First 27 across from me started a conversation noting he had used the same plastics company to replace his portlights 4 years earlier. Unlike the Catalina's, his portlights were a single piece of acrylic between 4 and 5' in length fitted on the outside (no frame) over a curved (longitudinally) cabin. They were screwed along their length to hold the curve and appeared to be sealed as Scott suggested above. They looked great.

Edit...I should add that in all these years I relied on an 8' x 10' white tarp bought on Amazon that I stretched over the cabin top with bungees at the corners. Worked great, cost only a few minutes to take down and set up and helped keep the sun off of some of the teak. At first I worried about chaff on the teak but it never proved a problem although I do place a couple of swim noodles next the hatch rails and add a couple of extra bungees if big wind is forecast.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Edited by - glivs on 05/28/2019 13:21:39

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2019 : 14:53:45

Scott, I appreciate the way you think about these kinds of projects. Totally top notch but with an eye towards practicality. The Locktite 5200-type caulk is a perfect example. A great way to solve the problem of filling the space between the skins and providing a nice finish. For inside trim I like the thought of making a ring-like teak piece like the ones in the cockpit around the cubby holes.

And Gerry, your direct experience doing this job is priceless. There�s a glass shop here in town that I�ve had do my home window projects in the past and they do a good old job at fair prices.
I also like your idea of a cabintop cover to keep the sun and rain off the top.

This seems like a great project for next fall and winter once the tarp is back on Passage.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/28/2019 14:54:32

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2019 : 16:00:06

Bruce -- you might want to check with local boat yards and listen to what they might propose. Always good to get another input. Many C30 owners have replaced their aluminum framed windows with external lexan. Possibly on other forums you can learn some do's and not to do's. I am convinced that properly done the aluminum frames should hold up fine. CD direct has gasket kits, etc. The issue is how long is long enough. I am coming to grips with the vulnerability of 30-40 year old boats vs. my age and anticipated use of same. My guess is that tinted lexan properly installed will cost the same or more and will last as long or longer -- it all depends on ambition and understanding what has worked vs not. Finally, an old friend who was a boatwrite once told me before doing anything on your boat or home -- just sit and look at the potential project, over and over and again. The right approach and steps needed will come into focus, THEN decide to do it or not. That approach has worked for me! Good conversation and topic.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

dkharvie
Deckhand

Members Avatar

Canada
9 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2021 : 07:29:06

Hi Gerry... about to do this project on my 86 Catalina 25 and wondering if you put the screws back in when you were finished or if the windows held without them? On my boat the screws protrude into the cabin and I'm always hitting them with the back of my head while sitting down...

Derek

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2021 : 08:09:38

When my C&C35 was built, the portlights were installed without screws. I had them professionally replaced, and the acrylic replacements were also installed without screws. I have seen boats that had portlights installed using screws. The problem is both lexan and acrylic expand and contract, and the screws cause cracks in the windows.

Thus, frameless portlights that are installed without screws might possibly come unglued, but I've never actually heard of it happening. If you use screws, the windows might crack, and I know of a few instances where that happened. There's some unavoidable degree of risk either way. I opted for no screws and was happy with that choice. It's your choice to make.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2021 : 08:18:14

Derek...no screws. At least on our Catalina's they were a problem because they were fixed in place and as the cabin/windows flexed something had to give, usually the window. I'm now a few years down the road and the windows still look great and best of all do not leak.

I'm in the middle of a move so likely will only sporadically log on but will eventually answer if you have any other questions. Good luck.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

dkharvie
Deckhand

Members Avatar

Canada
9 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2021 : 08:56:42

Thanks Gerry and Steve... will go with no screws. They have caused one window to crack a little... weirdly it's the only one that doesn't leak!

Derek

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2021 : 14:53:08

Check my website. On the main page, I have a link for some reference matl that may be of benefit. Years ago, I contacted Catalina (The Mfr) and their tech support people were very helpful. They provided a replacement port for my �89 after I sent them a full size paper template for the port configuration. They also provided, electronically, a mechanical drawing showing the install (on my website). While my existing portholes have screwholes for installation, Catalina indicated the replacement port should be installed without screwholes since the adhesive was sufficient, alone, to complete the installation. The drawing indicated how to apply weight/load to the port to get an appropriate seal.

The thing is that since my temporary sealing of the crack line in my existing port was holding, I procrastinated replacing it with the port I received from Catalina.........the replacement port is still laying in my VBerth area. Maybe one day, I�ll replace the existing port.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/11/2021 15:04:51

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2021 : 22:33:54

Interesting... somewhere between Larry's #5820 and my #5862 they apparently quit using screws to hold the portlights in place. Mine are just held in place by whatever adhesive/sealant they used at the factory.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2021 : 05:27:08

The port lights on our boat �5972� were held in place by screws.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2021 : 05:50:46

Screws or no.......??

Here was my experience replacing the windows on my 1987 C25. The boat was originally designed with plastic windows and also had screws.

I did my best to replicate what the Catalina factory does on newer boats, DOW 795, and no screws:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=23031

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2021 : 13:28:59

The story regarding the change to no screws was explained to me by the Catalina Mfr tech personnel - Utilizing the screws sometimes resulted in fractured ports from over tightening the screws (and maybe also drilling the holes) and since the sealant was deemed sufficient for sealing the ports, the installations and/or port replacements had less issues.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2021 : 05:59:17

This year I removed and resealed my windows. An interesting and frustrating exercise. First, Catalina seems to have used several different mounting options -- screws, no screws, etc and their was clear glass vs tinted glass and finally gasket materials was different thickness based on which permutation you have. I have clear glass with screws. Catalina Directs gasket did not fit my metal frames -- way to loose so needed to restore old gasket and use extensive sealant. I bought used frames from a parted out 25 only to find they were slightly different shape -- not a plug-n-play. In the end all fit back and are water tight, but "whadda project!" Larry's description of the Catalina explanation for screws v no screws makes sense. Would think however the size/shape of aluminum frames would be the same regardless.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Topic

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.