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Sailing downwind

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glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/23/2020 : 20:05:34

My downwind experience is sorely lacking. I've been reading and watching Youtube posts but there is a lot of variability in technique, probably in part due to using a whisker pole vs. spinnaker pole (with a genoa), boat size/setup (I'm not set up to fly a spinnaker), and sailing venue (open ocean vs. near shore). How do you rig to sail with a genoa poled out? (I have a spinnaker pole but have not used it.) Also do you use a preventer with the mainsail when the genoa is poled out. Again, many differences in techniques.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2020 : 21:00:48

You can use different techniques to sail downwind, depending mostly on the conditions.

In light air, you'll probably do better broad reaching downwind, at about 40 degrees off DDW.

In strong wind, you'll probably do better sailing wing-and-wing. You'll gain the most distance downwind in the least amount of time by poling out your jib with a telescoping whisker pole, poled out as far as possible. The pole keeps the jib from collapsing. You can get by without using a whisker pole in strong wind, because the wind is strong enough to keep the jib from collapsing. If your jib is collapsing, set the pole. In these conditions you should generally steer slightly by the lee, but that means you must be very focused on your steering to avoid a gybe, and crew should always keep their heads below the boom.

Some people set a preventer when sailing wing-and-wing. I prefer to set one when sailing wing-and-wing in very light air, but not in stronger wind.

You can set the pole any way that works for you, but a good way to begin with is to clip one end of the pole to the padeye on the mast, and extend the pole to rest on the bow pulpit. Then put the jibsheet in the outboard clip of the pole. Then crew trims in the jibsheet until the pole is just shy of touching the mast stays.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2020 : 21:03:08

Gerry, I have never gone as far as rigging a whisker pole or a halyard and downhaul, but here�s what I�ve done on several occasions pretty successfully.
First, the conditions were very consistent with a strong breeze (10kts) on a very tight direction. No gusts or veering wind direction.
Directly downwind - like dead aft.
I set up my main and jib wing and wing. I use a preventer on the main and let the mainsheet out most of the way.
I setup the jib. I let it out with the sheet and keep the windvane centered exactly.
I take my West Marine telescoping boat pole and catch the ring of my clew with the hook. I force it forward and to the side while letting out the jib sheet. I secure the butt end of the pole to my cabintop, all the while adjusting the boat�s direction with the wind vane.
I generally actively steer and don�t use my tiller tamer.
I�ve kept on this tack for 30-60 minutes depending on my destination.
It requires a great deal of vigilance to say the least. I�m not sure whether I�d trust an autopilot to steer in this situation.
I�m certain others who are better equipped can enjoy it a little better, but it�s definitely exhilarating.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2020 : 09:32:43

I just noticed you said you have a spinnaker pole. A whisker pole is used the same way as a spinnaker pole. The difference between the two is that a whisker pole can be extended in it's length, but a spinnaker pole cannot. Downwind sailing is all about reducing drag, and maximizing sail area by spreading your sails or hoisting bigger sails, like a spinnaker. A whisker pole can spread your jib farther than a spinnaker pole. When sailing deep downwind, aerodynamics doesn't come into play. The wind simply pushes on one side of the sails, so your goal is to spread as much sail area as possible to the wind.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2020 : 17:42:01

Steve, Bruce. As always, your experience and knowledge are much appreciated. I've sailed wing and wing in light air and the genoa would frequently collapse, although I don't recall my heading relative to the wind. The pole that came with the boat is substantial and heavy. Its length is extendable, however, so by Steve's definition it is actually a whisker pole. Let me repeat, I have zero experience with this thing but my concern is that without an uphaul(?) it would be too heavy in light air and without a fore and aft guy will I be setting myself up for trouble in heavy air should I need to furl the headsail. I guess I just need to get out and play with it.

Bruce, Your solution in light air is quite inventive. If our winds ever meet your requirements, I might give it a go.

In regard to a recent discussion on use of foils with double grooves. I recently watched a Youtube video about an Australian women's racing crew who set two headsails, one in each groove on the foil, to sail wing and wing without the mainsail. Cool.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2020 : 18:42:43

The whisker pole on my C25 was very light weight, and I was able to set it without a topping lift. A heavier pole requires a topping lift. I don't see a need for a downhaul on the whisker pole. The jibsheet pulls downward and prevents it from lifting.

Let me explain why a "wung out" jib collapses. There are multiple causes. It can collapse in a lull, when there isn't enough wind pressure on it to lift the weight of the sailcloth. It might collapse if it gets blanketed, for example, by a nearby boat. But it's especially annoying when the jib repeatedly collapses, and then fills with a bang. Setting the pole helps prevent the jib from collapsing, but you can also prevent it without the pole, by using trimming techniques.

Let me explain. Air is a fluid. If you pour a fluid into a vessel it will eventually overflow. If a fluid is poured into a container, like a bowl, the fluid will strongly tend to adhere to the surface of the bowl. When it overflows, the water will remain attached to the outside of the bowl and follow it down to the tabletop.

When a sailboat is running wing-and-wing, Some air strikes the jib directly and fills the sail. In addition, air is also filling the mainsail. When the mainsail is full, the excess air spills off the luff of the mainsail onto the jib, and it fills the jib to overflowing. If the excess air is allowed to spill out of the leech of the jib, it will adhere to the convex (backside) of the sail, and it will create a pressure on the backside of the sail, lifting it. Eventually, the lifted leech of the sail will be backwinded and cause all the air to spill out of it, and the jib will collapse. A few seconds later, the sail will refill and open with a bang.

The way to stop that from happening is to trim in the jibsheet a bit. By doing so, you will pull the sail's leech aft a little. That will cause the excess air to spill off the luff, instead of the leech, and the jib will stop that cycle of alternately collapsing and re-filling.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2020 : 19:08:56

"Normally" but not always, spinnaker poles are larger in diameter and heavier than a whisker pole.

Here's some interesting reading/watching.

https://www.forespar.com/whisker-poles.shtml

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 01/24/2020 19:11:35

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2020 : 11:21:12

My 12 foot three-section telescoping boat pole as listed here
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--floating-telescoping-boat-hooks--P005_158_003_009
weighs all of 24 oz
If you had a spare halyard you could adjust its height but I�ve never needed this. As Steve says if you adjust your jib sheet and the sheet cars forward, this will keep everything aligned.
I realize that lake sailing (even a huge lake like yours) features puffy and shifty winds but certain weather conditions produce the kind of favorable winds that I�m describing.
* Summertime southwesterlies from a Bermuda High sometimes peak at 10kts. These can be quite steady especially if they travel across a long fetch of water.
* Southeasterlies associated with a nearby low pressure center create persistent and strong breezes. In my case, they also create a short steep chop but that�s due to local fetch.
* Northwesterlies following a strong cold front may provide �interesting� downwind sailing conditions, however, we usually experience 10-15 kt breezes with 25-30kt gusts that often veer more northerly. This can make you a little crazy since you�re always battling a gybe if you�re not careful.
Fall conditions are usually more favorable than summer for stronger winds.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2020 : 17:35:07

Thanks again...both for the theory and the links.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2020 : 07:57:10

Just a follow up.Steve, your explanation of the genoa filling and collapsing was very helpful and trimming accordingly is something I can focus on this coming summer. And Bruce, our weather systems are typically W->E although our local winds are N or S dominant after the fronts pass through. My sailing venue, however, limits what we experience. Our mooring field is a 6 mi E-W sail to the open lake and the fetch within the bay is limited to 2-3 mi. This is great for end of day/casual sails and when the winds are stiff. For example, in a 15-20kt wind, wave heights in the bay will stay <1' whereas on the broad lake they can be 3-4' if the winds are constant for any time. The diameter of our bay, however, limits sailing long distance on a downwind run. If the fates allow, however, I would like to sail the broad lake with my daughter further south than we have explored before and if planned right would require long downwind runs. Just dreaming of summer.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 07:08:08

Bruce, you don't use your telescoping boat hook pole for a whisker pole, do you?

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 07:23:22

David, I extend the pole out all the way. On my jibsheet clew eye there�s a 2.5� stainless steel ring. I can insert the tip in there and push the genoa out. I lash the rubber handle to my cabintop with a quick release knot and that keeps the genny in place.
The trickier part is preventing the main from gybing so I usually run the mainsheet under the forward end of the stern pulpit and snap on the lifeline gate.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 12:46:52

Steve and I have a minor disagreement on downwind sailing. I try never to sail DDW but always keep the wind coming over the corner of the transom. We had 2 engraved marks on the whisker pole so that it could be preset - one for the jib and 1 for the genoa. When racing the pole was kept on the port side alongside the stanchions.
To set the pole the foredeck guy grabbed the sail end of the pole, clipped in the jib sheet at the clew, pushed the pole out and laid it alongside the forestay and then pushed it out to deploy while the trimmer trimmed the jibsheet.. This kept him from fighting a filling genoa.
When the wind shifted a little, we maintained course by "rotating" the sail plan. If the wind went forward we would trim the main a little and ease the pole. If it went aft, we would reverse that.
BTW the pole was extended to 15' 6 1/2" for the genoa.
It was a very fast way to sail downwind.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2020 : 12:50:56

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

Steve and I have a minor disagreement on downwind sailing. I try never to sail DDW but always keep the wind coming over the corner of the transom. We had 2 engraved marks on the whisker pole so that it could be preset - one for the jib and 1 for the genoa. When racing the pole was kept on the port side alongside the stanchions.
To set the pole the foredeck guy grabbed the sail end of the pole, clipped in the jib sheet at the clew, pushed the pole out and laid it alongside the forestay, clipped the other end to the ring on the mast and then pushed it out to deploy while the trimmer hauled on the jibsheet.. This kept him from fighting a filling genoa.
When the wind shifted a little, we maintained course by "rotating" the sail plan. If the wind went forward we would trim the main a little and ease the pole. If it went aft, we would reverse that.
BTW the pole was extended to 15' 6 1/2" for the genoa.
It was a very fast way to sail downwind.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

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