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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7574 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2017 :  15:09:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

...However, I spent a lot of time just looking at this boat underwater, which helped me be much less terrified of being on a sinking boat.
I'm not sure why... But for the dock lines and maybe the bottom in her slip, that boat could have disappeared altogether--not much to comfort you in that case. Past a certain amount of water in the hull, just about any keelboat will go straight to the bottom, wherever that is.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1223 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 :  06:35:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any boat that sinks "mysteriously" at a dock is suspect. I would haul out and thoroughly check. If it were a wood boat possibly a plank is suspect. However with a fiberglass boat if it's not a seacock that usually leaves either a centerboard/keel issue or the boat struck something that caused a crack or hole.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7574 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2017 :  11:08:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

Well, my dock neighbor's boat sank in a week...
How much (if any) rain had fallen? If it was substantial, given the report she stayed dry after re-floating, I tend to agree with Steve's cockpit drain suggestion. Another variation on that: if the drains (or scuppers) were clogged, the cockpit could have filled to the point of overflowing the companionway sill or bridge deck. At some point, the cockpit drain clogs could be pushed out by the reverse pressure, accelerating the inflow. Another suspect could be the water intake (if any) for the head. Circumstances like a clog in or at a "loop vent" (to prevent siphoning) can cause siphoning that can fill the boat. I recall somebody here reporting something like that years ago.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1223 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2017 :  18:15:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speaking of rain, how did everyone in the northeast area survive the rain/wind event on October 29-30? Hopefully boats were set for the winter season. I know many lost electricity, etc.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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3820 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2017 :  18:39:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Passage survived last week's 5+ inches of rain and 30+ mph winds, then again it survived 5+ more inches of rain and 50+ mph winds. There was about a pint of rainwater in the cabin. I tied her up with double lines and my two 12" ball fenders. The only problem I had was the boat was coated with bird crap when I got back. She's on the marina dock tonight all ready for her annual fall passage to my winter haulout. I sail out of Milford Harbor, past Charles Island, through Long Island Sound over to the Housatonic River. Once there, I sail up to the railroad drawbridge and wait for an opening, then another few miles upstream through pastoral countryside (and a helicopter factory) then to her winter home. With today's 70° temperatures I'm very sad to take her home.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain Stratford & Milford, CT
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7574 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2017 :  19:29:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bruce: You won't be so sad tomorrow as you transit in the considerably cooler conditions, and Sunday should convince you the time is over. After that, it's 50s and below... It's NOVEMBER.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/03/2017 19:31:21
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1223 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2017 :  19:48:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave -- I agree, but we on the Sound have been experiencing the upside of global warming, and as with any temptress can be fickle!!!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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601 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2017 :  18:26:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, my dock neighbor lucked out. The local fire department helped him float the boat for free.

The boat floated fine after they raised it and got the water out. The through-hulls were all fine. I noticed it now floats a foot and a half higher than normal. He hadn't been to his boat in over a year. I guess it had accumulated rainwater, maybe from bad cockpit drains like Steve suggested. It had not rained in a while, but since the boat had always sat low in the water, I think the rain accumulation had been a long term issue.



Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
http://whichsailboat.com/2015/08/22/catalina-22-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 11/13/2017 18:29:28
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OLarryR
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3048 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2017 :  05:28:43  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
One thing besides maintaining scuppers clear and that seacocks are watertight, there is also the manual bilge drain. That bilge drain is a bit above the waterline but when you are loaded with guests or perhaps under certain conditions, the drain could be at or slightly below the waterline. When was the last time anyone ever checked how snug that rubber hose was clamped to the drain ? That s a potential leaker area. The other day, I noticed that my bilge hose from the drain came off at the outlet of the manual bilge pump outlet. This is usually not a problem with water entering since there is a zip tie that holds up the mid length of that hose attached just below the dumpster cockpit locker seat...except my zip tie had snapped. That's why the bilge hose flexed lower and then since the clamp to the pump outlet was probably not snug, the hose came off the outlet end of the pump. I re-installed a zip tie this past weekend.

Every year or so, there is usually 1 boat that will sink at out 300 slip marine. I am keeping my eye on what looks like a potential candidate. Looks like a 19' sailboat of old vintage, without scuppers since cockpit must be at the waterline. All that protects this boat from rainwater coming into the cabin is what appears to be a 3" lip at the cockpit deck/companionway entry. This boat is always tilted downwards toward the bow. So, any rainwater collects and is highest right at that 3" lip. I have never seen the owners but I suspect they do come down to their boat but ...infrequently. I have seen rainwater collect where less than 1" of the lip is above the water collecting in the cockpit. So...one of these days.... Anyway, I suspect that there may be water inside the cabin since this boat is always tilted significantly toward the bow. But not sure . Just one of those mysteries ready to unfold.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Wash DC http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/14/2017 05:33:09
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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4957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2017 :  07:00:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also, don't assume that the marina staff did everything right when they worked on your boat. Last year I found that they forgot to put the hose clamps back on after they disconnected a hose to winterize my boat. I didn't discover it until my boat was launched in the spring and I had been sleeping on it for two weeks, with no clamps on the hose.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Good Times
1st Mate

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29 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2017 :  18:54:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been asking myself, why the drain hole from the manual bilge pump is so close to the water line in the first place;
I have the designated gas tank locker on the port side, the bilge pump is 2 ft away in the dumpster, why not drain to the gas locker with its 'open' bottom towards the cockpit sole and fiberglass the original opening shut; will be my next winter project...

Andy Kohler

C25 #6012 TR WK
traditional layout

16ft Apollo Dinghy
16ft Hobie Cat
21ft SanJuan
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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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601 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2017 :  19:15:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Good Times

I have been asking myself, why the drain hole from the manual bilge pump is so close to the water line in the first place;



Keeping the bilge outlet low prevents unsightly bilge water stains on your topsides. Theoretically, it makes it less likely for sea water to slosh through the outlet and down into the bilge, and there's no chance of rain water entering the bilge, both as long as you have a proper anti-siphon loop in the outlet hose.

quote:
Originally posted by Good Times


I have the designated gas tank locker on the port side, the bilge pump is 2 ft away in the dumpster, why not drain to the gas locker with its 'open' bottom towards the cockpit sole and fiberglass the original opening shut; will be my next winter project...



Theoretically, if you mounted the outlet high in the tank locker, then gas fumes wouldn't go through the hose to the bilge, but that doesn't account for the unexpected things that can go wrong. What if there's a temperature and pressure differential between the locker and the bilge so that fumes get sucked through the hose to the bilge? Having no way for gas fumes to enter your bilge is a major advantage on your boat with the separate fuel locker.



Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
http://whichsailboat.com/2015/08/22/catalina-22-review/
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2979 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2017 :  08:45:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
why not drain to the gas locker with its 'open' bottom towards the cockpit sole and fiberglass the original opening shut; will be my next winter project...

Draining to the gas locker provides a way for fumes to enter the bilge as noted above. Kinda defeats the reason Catalina started installing a dedicated locker. If you want to eliminate the thru hull in the transom I would attach a hose to the pump outlet and coil it in the dumpster. Open the dumpster lid, uncoil the hose and drop it over the side or onto the cockpit floor. The reality is that the bilge hose is higher than the lip to the companion way. Water won't enter through the bilge pump hose until the sea water level reaches the top most part of the hose. In my boat that hose leaves the pump then angles up to the underside of the seats then down to the thru hull. Before this would happen water would enter your scuppers and go over the companionway lip because they are lower than the hose.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 11/15/2017 09:51:51
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
7574 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2017 :  11:40:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
why not drain to the gas locker with its 'open' bottom towards the cockpit sole and fiberglass the original opening shut; will be my next winter project...
...The reality is that the bilge hose is higher than the lip to the companion way. Water won't enter through the bilge pump hose until the sea water level reaches the top most part of the hose...
Another reality is that the both flapper valves in the manual bilge pump prevent back-flow (including siphon flow) from the exit hose. That's fundamental to how the pump works--the exit flapper closes when the diaphram is expanded so it fills from the bilge hose, and the entrance flapper closes when the diaphram is compressed so the output is to the exit hose. Both flappers close in the event of back-flow. You could say they're redundant in that case.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/15/2017 11:42:39
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2979 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2017 :  13:38:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your right Dave, I forgot about the flappers inside the pump. They will act like a one way valve. I also want to add that the pump opening into the cockpit is not water tight so if the cockpit fills to it's height...

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 11/15/2017 13:44:34
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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3048 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2017 :  05:59:25  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The issue with the bilge pump system is not to do with the pump for the reasons already stated - The height of the pump and the flapper valves prevents leakage entering the boat that way. However, the bilge system is one of those things hardly ever given any thought and over the years, the hose clamps may become loose as the rubber hose ages. If the hose comes off at the drain hole, then that is a potential entry point. Also, if your bilge hose is configured like mine - It comes off the outlet of the pump and attached in the dumpster high, possibly above the pump height and just below the seat utilizing a zip tie, the zip tie over the years, may give way/snap. If that happens, then the hose off the outlet of the pump has no support and will sag downward. I know this is then a double jeopardy, a hose that the zip tie breaks, hose sags and then possibly due to the hose clamp on the pump outlet semi-loose, the hose can fall off the pump outlet and then that makes for another potential leaker into the boat. But I noticed this is exactly what happened to me - I noticed the zip tie snapped, hose sagged and the hose had dropped down off the pump outlet - Hose was resting in bottom of dumpster. I redid the zip tie, re-installed the hose to pump outlet and tightened the hose clamp.

So...just recommend that it is a good idea to once in awhile check that the hose is snug with the hose clamp to the transom drain, the zip tie that attaches and supports the hose is still attached and that the hose attached t the pump outlet is also snug.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Wash DC http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/16/2017 :  07:47:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good points Larry. Part of owning a boat is periodic inspections. Take the time to look around, Check hoses, Clamps,Fittings and electrical components. Failing to do so is an invitation for disaster.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3048 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2017 :  04:29:50  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
While we are in this topic of miscellaneous issues, has anyone bought a flow agitator to keep ice from forming around the boat during the winter months ? I am just curious. I have thought about it but not ready to spend ~ $500 when it rarely is necessary for my marina...but still think about it occasionally.

My marina has flow agitators but the marina indicates they have them mostly to protect the floating docks. Usually, the agitators are fairly close to my boat and so...no issues. But some years, the flow agitators are not so close and ice will form around the boat - Generally not all that thick. Only one recent year, the semi-close agitator stopped operating. That year also coincided with a real deep freeze that winter and my boat and boats adjacent to me were locked solid in the ice. I was concerned with the rudder, which I had left in the water. Thought was if during thawing, the boat became free before the rudder, there would be rudder damage. As it turned out, the rudder was the first to become free, probably due to an agitator on the opposite side finger slips that assisted somewhat.

Anyway, it seems all the agitators, mostly made by two companies, are both in the $400-$500 range for their smallest units. For a one boat issue, they should even have a smaller horsepower unit that would sell at say ~ $200.

Anyone bought an agitator ? Are there any that sell "new", maintenance free, at much less than $450 ?

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Wash DC http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/17/2017 :  05:50:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
At my marina if you choose to stay in the water they make you move to another slip with other in water boats so your group together then they supply the ice eaters for those boats. They are expensive IMO for what they are but as we all know, If it's marine related......They don't run constantly, A worker turns them on if ice starts to form. Used maybe? E-Bay?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 11/17/2017 05:51:20
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
7574 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2017 :  07:43:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Used?? A used Ice Eater is a dead Ice Eater. My condo association runs about 15 of them as necessary to preserve our dock--they don't last forever. (Think about an electric motor spending the winter immersed in salt water, hopefully idle most of the time.) We catch occasional sales at Defender to have some spares...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/17/2017 07:45:41
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2979 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2017 :  09:42:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Used?? A used Ice Eater is a dead Ice Eater.

Agreed but I just cruzed CL for one and came up with a guy selling one new for $300 and 2 used. Ya never know.https://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/bpo/d/ice-eater-winter-is-here/6390355819.html

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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