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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  07:33:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well said Dave. That's a darn good summation of our situation. I'm sorry that Steve didn't get a decent response to his excellent proposal. If only our boats were more easily trailered...

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7574 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  08:25:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ya Derek--back in the day, I might have traveled just to watch you on This Side Up go head-to-head with Chuck Shaw on Confetti and anyone else who might be in that league! (Kansas Twister?) But alas...

If they were easier to trailer, set up, and take down, and all to O/D specs, they'd be C-22s.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
4957 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  08:26:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What made the National Regatta important to the Association was not the distribution of ego boosting trophies. The trophies were merely the incentive that caused our members to drag their boats hundreds of miles to participate. The importance of the National Regatta was that it was the only event we had that gave our members an opportunity to play together each year. Without the National Regatta, the principal remaining function of the Association is to serve as an arms-length chatline.

Your theory is that the National Regatta died because times changed. You don't know that. It's just your theory. If that was true, I'd have no problem with it. If someone had made a genuine effort to promote it, and, if they fell flat on their face, then we would know that times have indeed changed, and I'd praise them for giving it their best effort. But that isn't what happened.

The National Regatta didn't happen automatically every year for thirty years. Somebody made it happen. How do you make it happen? You have to sell it. You have to get people talking about it and get them excited about it, and you have to persuade people that organizing it isn't a monumental task. Once you find a person to organize it, then you have to promote it, to induce people to load up their boats, hook up their trailers and go.

I sat here and watched as each year a bland, colorless announcement was posted on the forum that proposals were now being accepted for next years' National Regatta. If Whirlpool ran an ad in the paper announcing that their refrigerators would be for sale at msrp on Saturday, they wouldn't sell many refrigerators. You have to motivate people to act on the announcement.

Early in the string of failures, I saw one member volunteer to organize the event at his venue, and I saw John G. recite a litany of reasons why it was a dumb idea. So, we didn't have a National Regatta that year because nobody else volunteered to organize it. Instead of letting it fail by default, I'd have much rather encouraged the member to try it, even if it ultimately failed. I don't consider it shameful to fail. I consider it shameful to fail to try.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Peregrine
Admiral

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670 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  08:55:44  Show Profile  Visit Peregrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

What made the National Regatta important to the Association was not the distribution of ego boosting trophies. The trophies were merely the incentive that caused our members to drag their boats hundreds of miles to participate. The importance of the National Regatta was that it was the only event we had that gave our members an opportunity to play together each year. Without the National Regatta, the principal remaining function of the Association is to serve as an arms-length chatline.

Your theory is that the National Regatta died because times changed. You don't know that. It's just your theory. If that was true, I'd have no problem with it. If someone had made a genuine effort to promote it, and, if they fell flat on their face, then we would know that times have indeed changed, and I'd praise them for giving it their best effort. But that isn't what happened.

The National Regatta didn't happen automatically every year for thirty years. Somebody made it happen. How do you make it happen? You have to sell it. You have to get people talking about it and get them excited about it, and you have to persuade people that organizing it isn't a monumental task. Once you find a person to organize it, then you have to promote it, to induce people to load up their boats, hook up their trailers and go.

I sat here and watched as each year a bland, colorless announcement was posted on the forum that proposals were now being accepted for next years' National Regatta. If Whirlpool ran an ad in the paper announcing that their refrigerators would be for sale at msrp on Saturday, they wouldn't sell many refrigerators. You have to motivate people to act on the announcement.

Early in the string of failures, I saw one member volunteer to organize the event at his venue, and I saw John G. recite a litany of reasons why it was a dumb idea. So, we didn't have a National Regatta that year because nobody else volunteered to organize it. Instead of letting it fail by default, I'd have much rather encouraged the member to try it, even if it ultimately failed. I don't consider it shameful to fail. I consider it shameful to fail to try.


And this year?


John Gisondi
Peregrine
#4762


*The bird is a HOT link
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
4957 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  09:45:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My effort failed, but not for lack of trying or lack of enthusiasm or for lack of a creative proposal. I think the result this year is more complicated than it might seem on the surface.

The key to making my proposal work was for our Chesapeake Bay members to participate. They would provide the core of participants. If they were willing to make a commitment to participate, that would provide the necessary base upon which we could build outside participation, by talking it up and generating enthusiasm for it during the next year. It's no special burden for the people who live here and sail here to participate, because they don't have to trailer their boats, launch them and rig them. All they would have to do is to get their boat to the starting line at the appointed time. Usually even dedicated cruisers participate in national regattas, if for no other reason than to support the club.

For whatever reason, most of the locals didn't step up.

I don't always feel like racing my Cal in scheduled races, but I do it out of a sense of responsibility to the Cal Association, the sport and my fellow members. If we don't participate, the sport, the club and our fellow members will suffer.

Maybe the locals didn't step up because of work or family commitments (although one would think those things could be worked out with a year's advance notice).

Maybe they didn't step up because they were irritated with me for opposing your elevation to Commodore. I can understand that. People don't like dissension. I did what I considered to be in the best interests of the Association, as always.

I can't honestly say why people didn't support the Association. I only know that it wasn't because of a failure to try, or a willingness to surrender.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Peregrine
Admiral

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670 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  09:55:54  Show Profile  Visit Peregrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"irritated with me for opposing your elevation to Commodore." ??

Vice maybe? Never ran against Russ.


John Gisondi
Peregrine
#4762


*The bird is a HOT link
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Peregrine
Admiral

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670 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  13:24:25  Show Profile  Visit Peregrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

[quote]Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Gosh Dave, you cherry picked the worst year in our history! In the next year (2011) there were 24 Capris and 5 C25s and C250s racing handicapped. Twenty-nine members had a good time racing in a national event.

The data for 2008-2010 doesn't seem to be accessible online and some data is only sketchily recorded, but in 2006 10 boats competed.

In 2005, only 9 boats actually competed, but this is a quote from the report: "We had over 30 sailors on the water, one boat from Indiana, (Bob Mienert), one from Texas, (Derek Crawford), and one boat from Oklahoma, (Steve Meyer), but sailors came from Florida, (Jerry Mulvihill), Connecticut, (Don Peet [New York]), Oklahoma, (JB Manley, Matt Meyer, Jack Moore, Hugh Baser, Ken West), Louisiana, (Mike Murphy, Buck Blum, Tim Voyt), Texas, (Judy Ayers and JD Dukes), and Oregon, (Gary Bruner, Terry Annis, Steve Elred). Several of the out of towners brought family; sailboat racing is a wonderful family experience."

In 2004 there were 26 boats participating...

OK Steve, so I cherry-picked what appeared to me to be our last year. Five local boats (3 & 2) in 2010. I can't find any evidence from 2011 except that WYC in Minnesota had their annual Capri Championships then, as always. Several years after that, they invited C-25s and C-250s to join the regatta, and none did--not even local boats. At some point back then, absent any news, I looked at the WYC regatta results to see if there was any evidence to the contrary, and found none. (Were there National Champions nobody has heard about?) Meanwhile, your Cal 25 class is gathered from all over the country in......... Detroit. Is this our association's fault? Or is it the natural evolution of things?

You took your best shot, offering one of the most attractive venues in the nation and best set-ups in years, and what happened? How many years does that make? What Catalina owners have stepped up to organize a National Regatta or howled for a one they can travel to? The silence is deafening. The vitriol surrounding this apparently natural transition is disappointing and not helpful to the association. This is still one of the best sailing communities in support of owners of a few models anywhere on the Web. I think with a little creativity, some things could be promoted to enhance the community--for example, recognition programs, off-season regional get-togethers (with reports),... The trophy is not the point--the community is.



What he said.

Find out who IS racing and is an Assoc enthusiast.
Yes, a complete survey would help. Data tells all.


John Gisondi
Peregrine
#4762


*The bird is a HOT link
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Peregrine
Admiral

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670 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  18:58:21  Show Profile  Visit Peregrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Steve Milby’s posts are in BOLD/ITALIC.

You need an organizer (me)
Nice ego. That worked out well.

a sponsoring club (I found at least two that would do it)
But they didn’t.

and you need racers
Who want to participate in an Association regatta. But you didn’t find them. Nor did you look for them.

Sadly, some of our active Chesapeake Bay members couldn't be enticed to participate in what promised to be an outstanding event for racers and cruisers alike.
They ignored your fabulous offer. Hmmmm…?!

The answer is that a helluva lot of people are racing Catalinas on small lakes all around the country, some casually and some seriously. We don't need a survey or a poll to know that.

Maybe we do need to see who in the Association actually care about BOTH the Association AND racing and would be willing to stage an event that brings members together.


John Gisondi
Peregrine
#4762


*The bird is a HOT link
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7574 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  20:04:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, I tried to stay neutral and discuss the situation we have, without blaming anyone... Then I mentioned the vitriol that the situation seems to have created... Then I said that's not good for the Association... I'm closing with that comment. What's happened, happened. Let's STOP IT and move to the constructive side.

Sarge out.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1223 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 :  20:39:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
or . . . the idea of a National Regatta is enticing -- but -- the reality may be that too many owners are getting as long in the tooth as their boats, preferring cruising from competition, and hauling a three ton vessel 500 - 2000 miles is becoming less desirable AND far too time consuming. I would bet that, as has been proposed in the past, a regional fleet raft up or race might be better received. But then again if Annapolis could not draw, then I fear the relative ages of boat and crew may be the challenge! Despite great intentions and efforts, times/situations do change.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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Peregrine
Admiral

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670 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2017 :  13:33:13  Show Profile  Visit Peregrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

or . . . the idea of a National Regatta is enticing -- but -- the reality may be that too many owners are getting as long in the tooth as their boats, preferring cruising from competition, and hauling a three ton vessel 500 - 2000 miles is becoming less desirable AND far too time consuming. I would bet that, as has been proposed in the past, a regional fleet raft up or race might be better received. But then again if Annapolis could not draw, then I fear the relative ages of boat and crew may be the challenge! Despite great intentions and efforts, times/situations do change.



When I was an officer the idea of "regionals'" was brought up and favorably discussed. I believe we even went so far as offering the idea to the membership on this forum
I think it is an idea that can and should be pursued. Of course there was one curmudgeon who bad mouthed it at some length, can you guess who?
It is hard to get a new idea off the ground when it is immediately attacked with no chance for discussion.
The fleet structure also was very important and has fallen to the wayside. "Get together's" used to be the glue of a few of our fleets. No longer.
IMO Finding out who is racing and "getting together" would be instrumental in encouraging new fleets and then building on some organized events of any kind. The events could be reported on what is left of the Mainsheet and here on this forum.


John Gisondi
Peregrine
#4762


*The bird is a HOT link

Edited by - Peregrine on 08/14/2017 14:08:20
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