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 Balanced Rudder Catalina 25
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SKS
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USA
143 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/14/2020 :  15:27:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've looked at the plans for balanced rudders published on the internet and also here on this site.
I understand the need to put some of the rudder surface area ahead of the pintles, but what is the purpose of having two cutouts ?
Wouldn't a single cutout of appropriate area be adequate ??
I think that's the way the Blue Water rudder is built

Here's a plan that I'm talking about.



"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 01/14/2020 15:33:53

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4120 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2020 :  20:50:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SKS

I've looked at the plans for balanced rudders published on the internet and also here on this site.
I understand the need to put some of the rudder surface area ahead of the pintles, but what is the purpose of having two cutouts ?
Wouldn't a single cutout of appropriate area be adequate ??
I think that's the way the Blue Water rudder is built

Here's a plan that I'm talking about.







I suppose you could build it like the lower picture but I believe the purpose of the area between 11 7/8" and 17 3/8" in the top picture is to keep the gap between the little "fin" on the rear of the hull and the front edge of the rudder as small as possible so as to not create turbulence. Also adds to the area in front of the of the pintles.

Not sure I explained it very well and there's a good chance I';m completely off base but thought I'd have a go of it. LOL


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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 01/14/2020 20:51:23
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2020 :  21:43:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I bought the fiberglass “2-step” version... The upper step, under the pintle and above the waterline, puts the leading edge closer to the transom to reduce drag below the waterline. It doesn’t create any significant balance. The lower step goes under the skeg (little fin) and provides the surface that balances the helm—like power steering!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/14/2020 21:51:29
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GaryB
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4120 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2020 :  22:59:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I bought the fiberglass “2-step” version... The upper step, under the pintle and above the waterline, puts the leading edge closer to the transom to reduce drag below the waterline. It doesn’t create any significant balance. The lower step goes under the skeg (little fin) and provides the surface that balances the helm—like power steering!


Yeah, what Dave said. I knew I wasn't saying it right! LOL


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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 01/14/2020 23:00:46
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bigelowp
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1462 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2020 :  08:06:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My balanced rudder (Ruddercraft via Catalina Direct in 2007)does not have the two steps but looks like the picture. If you want to look at it I'm also at Cove, across the drive area from you to the far left, second row from drive area -- name of boat is on the shrink wrap.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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SKS
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143 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2020 :  12:52:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

My balanced rudder (Ruddercraft via Catalina Direct in 2007)does not have the two steps but looks like the picture. If you want to look at it I'm also at Cove, across the drive area from you to the far left, second row from drive area -- name of boat is on the shrink wrap.



Thanks. I'll take a look. Right now, I'm thinking I'll just modify my existing rudder.
It needs to be spruced up anyway, I might as well have something to keep me busy. I'm not getting much skiing done.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut
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RandyAmy
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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2020 :  07:35:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone here built one of these?
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2020 :  08:53:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SKS

Thanks. I'll take a look. Right now, I'm thinking I'll just modify my existing rudder.
It needs to be spruced up anyway, I might as well have something to keep me busy. I'm not getting much skiing done.

In case you haven't already figured it out, and assuming yours is like my original '85 rudder and all previous years, a few notes about what you have: The "head" down to the lower pintle is fiberglass around a wood core--below that is the solid fiberglass "blade". The head tends to absorb water from a split between the two sides, and possibly from the holes for the pintle and tiller bolts. Rotting wood is the cause of fairly common breaks at the lower pintle, which absorbs the torque from pressure on the blade, especially from heeling in big chop. The blade can snap completely off, right at that pintle--suddenly putting your boat out of control. Frankly, I don't think it's worth trying to "modify"--your effort would be better spend making a new one.

Some folks here (including me) replaced those rudders before they broke--some after... The "two-step" rudder sold by CD is fiberglass with a foam core that is not subject to rot (although it's a good idea to protect it from freezing). It's much lighter weight--in fact almost wants to float off the gudgeons (cotter pin required). The one-step version pictured (made by Ruddercraft and sold by CD) is solid HDPE plastic. I've seen reports on a few sailing forums of that rudder snapping in two under stress, which might be why a thicker "blue water" version was brought out after a few years.

Nuff said...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/16/2020 08:54:36
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SKS
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2020 :  17:47:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by SKS

Thanks. I'll take a look. Right now, I'm thinking I'll just modify my existing rudder.
It needs to be spruced up anyway, I might as well have something to keep me busy. I'm not getting much skiing done.

In case you haven't already figured it out, and assuming yours is like my original '85 rudder and all previous years, a few notes about what you have: The "head" down to the lower pintle is fiberglass around a wood core--below that is the solid fiberglass "blade". The head tends to absorb water from a split between the two sides, and possibly from the holes for the pintle and tiller bolts. Rotting wood is the cause of fairly common breaks at the lower pintle, which absorbs the torque from pressure on the blade, especially from heeling in big chop. The blade can snap completely off, right at that pintle--suddenly putting your boat out of control. Frankly, I don't think it's worth trying to "modify"--your effort would be better spend making a new one.

Some folks here (including me) replaced those rudders before they broke--some after... The "two-step" rudder sold by CD is fiberglass with a foam core that is not subject to rot (although it's a good idea to protect it from freezing). It's much lighter weight--in fact almost wants to float off the gudgeons (cotter pin required). The one-step version pictured (made by Ruddercraft and sold by CD) is solid HDPE plastic. I've seen reports on a few sailing forums of that rudder snapping in two under stress, which might be why a thicker "blue water" version was brought out after a few years.

Nuff said...




OK, OK.. Got it. I'm going to buy the new balanced rudder from CD.
BUT....evidently the new rudder that CD offers doesn't have any foam or wood in it. It's all fiberglass made with fiberglass stringers for internal support to hold the fiberglass skin. It seems to be at least the third design generation from the original with two generations of design enhancemnets. And it has the double cutout.
So, here goes..................

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 01/17/2020 14:37:09
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2020 :  08:49:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry if I put a hole in your checking account... But good choice--you'll like it.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1462 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2020 :  11:20:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FYI I have the HDPE "Bluewater" version and have had no structural issues. I would think for sailing on Long Island Sound, or most other coastal waters, any HDPE would work well -- offshore or heavy air areas, maybe not

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
381 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2020 :  16:38:17  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
For whatever it might contribute to this discussion, and for the benefit of anyone in the future who pulls this thread up from the archives, here are the dimensions from the Foss Foam (Florida) rudder I purchased. This shows how the upper step fills the space beneath the lower pintle/gudgeon. It also shows the relative dimensions on my '84, indicating where the hardware was placed. The height I positioned it leaves a gap between the skeg of the hull and the rudder, which could catch debris, but that's somewhat irrelevant as there will be a substantial gap whenever the rudder is off dead center anyway. The flip-side of this issue is the clearance afforded under the traveler, allowing the tiller to be raised.





BTW, it gets a pretty good workout every time I sail on SF Bay in the summertime, and it's been holding up without any indication of stress. It sure has made a difference in handling the boat!


The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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