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 headsil recomendations for C250
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vdotmatrix
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/03/2017 :  00:24:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have , I think a 110 , and I want to get a genoa and wonder what most of you guys use, a 135 or 150?

The C250 will still accomodate a 150 with the stock side car jib rail from catalina right?

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7597 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2017 :  08:03:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What is your model (WB or WK) and year, what are your typical and range of conditions, and what is your objective for the larger sail? Catalina offered the 135 as an option--I believe only with the WK (could be wrong). Both are somewhat tender boats--the WB more so. The two models had different sheeting arrangements, which may have varied over model years... Not being a 250 PO, I'll only say a 150-155 is a big hunk for visibility and tacking ease on just about any boat, while the 130/135 is very popular among non-racers on many boats. (I liked mine.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2163 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2017 :  16:50:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another critical question is what furler you have. CDI FF2 will almost certainly not accommodate a 150, and maybe not a 135 either (drum too small to hold all the line unless you maybe remove the core). A FF4 will probably do a 135, but maybe not a 150.

A 150 is almost certainly over-canvassed on that boat, and will get very lousy shape when if you try to wrap it for heavy conditions. You need to ask yourself what you would do if you had to get somewhere in 2 knot wind. Would you use the sail (perhaps to avoid DQ from a race), or would you just turn on the motor anyway? If the latter, there's no need for a big sail.

I sailed my C250 on a river requiring lots of tacking, so I went with a 110 for ease of tacking. My current boat is on the Chesapeake, where I can go many miles in a straight line, so I got rid of my heavy, klunky 150 and got a 135 instead.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Photobucket is holding my picture hostage!
----- 1998 C250WK #348 "Take Five" -----|-------- 1991 15' Trophy ----------|- 1985 14' Phantom -
---- Essington, PA on Delaware River -----|---------- Trailered to Lake Wallenpaupack ------------
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vdotmatrix
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  05:31:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we are on the potomac.On one C250, we have a larger genoa and I have to look at it again once it comes back from the sailshop, the other C250 has I would say a std 110. So I would like to get a std sail for the one and a genoa for the one that doesnt. Thank you for bringing up the size of the furler because I did not consider this....
quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

Another critical question is what furler you have. CDI FF2 will almost certainly not accommodate a 150, and maybe not a 135 either (drum too small to hold all the line unless you maybe remove the core). A FF4 will probably do a 135, but maybe not a 150.

A 150 is almost certainly over-canvassed on that boat, and will get very lousy shape when if you try to wrap it for heavy conditions. You need to ask yourself what you would do if you had to get somewhere in 2 knot wind. Would you use the sail (perhaps to avoid DQ from a race), or would you just turn on the motor anyway? If the latter, there's no need for a big sail.

I sailed my C250 on a river requiring lots of tacking, so I went with a 110 for ease of tacking. My current boat is on the Chesapeake, where I can go many miles in a straight line, so I got rid of my heavy, klunky 150 and got a 135 instead.

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vdotmatrix
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  05:33:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will have to figure out what model we have...One C250 is a 2003 and the other is a 20006 or 2007 i forget.
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

What is your model (WB or WK) and year, what are your typical and range of conditions, and what is your objective for the larger sail? Catalina offered the 135 as an option--I believe only with the WK (could be wrong). Both are somewhat tender boats--the WB more so. The two models had different sheeting arrangements, which may have varied over model years... Not being a 250 PO, I'll only say a 150-155 is a big hunk for visibility and tacking ease on just about any boat, while the 130/135 is very popular among non-racers on many boats. (I liked mine.)

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
7597 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  10:15:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was thinking more of the keels... The wing and the water ballast models are somewhat different boats regarding sail carrying capacity. At some point (maybe from the beginning), the WK was rigged with more inboard shrouds to enhance close-hauled sheeting of a genoa outside of them, while the WB (as I recall) kept the shrouds at the gunwales for sheeting a 110 inside them--presumably because Catalina thought that was as much sail as the WB wanted. The car tracks might also be different.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/06/2017 10:17:07
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vdotmatrix
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  11:08:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have winged keels. On the Potomac in the summers and whenever the winds are very light and aggravating. I was thinking a nice genoa would ease our pain during light wind.....
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I was thinking more of the keels... The wing and the water ballast models are somewhat different boats regarding sail carrying capacity. At some point (maybe from the beginning), the WK was rigged with more inboard shrouds to enhance close-hauled sheeting of a genoa outside of them, while the WB (as I recall) kept the shrouds at the gunwales for sheeting a 110 inside them--presumably because Catalina thought that was as much sail as the WB wanted. The car tracks might also be different.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3051 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2017 :  04:34:04  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Where are you....at the Wash Sailing marina ?

I am a next door neighbor - I am at James creek Marina on the DC side just past the Wash Channel on the Anacostia River.

I have a Cat 25 winged keel. I replaced my sails back around 2006 or so. I had Quantum out of Annapolis come down and they took measurements and made up my main and furling rig Genoa sails the way I wanted them: Main sail with one set of reefing holes about mid-pt between where the most sails have two sets of reefing holes and the Genoa, I got a 150.

I was curious where you are on the Potomac and so I checked what info there was on your name in our Forum...reason being, there are some issues specific to our area that you may want to consider.

If you are in the Wash Sailing marina, then you are even closer to the Natl Reagon Airport compared to me , though, the wind probably blows in my direction more often than toward your direction. Why this is of some consideration ? Over time, the sails pick up some environmental air contamination from the planes taking off, When I brought my sails in to Quantum after the first few years to get them cleaned/maintained, they were curious where I sailed. Once I told them, they then indicated that it explained why they could not remove some of the particulate matter which was mostly on the furling Genoa. It picks up a sort of oil particulate from all those planes and mainly shows up on the Genoa since the main sail has a Sunbrella cover on it. My Genoa was originally made up with extra sail matl on the outer edge to serve as the Genoa cover as you roll it up, however, the white sail matl/cover is where the particulate sometimes shows up. So, Quantum replaced the sail matl cover with a piece of Blue Sunbrella. But here is the thing - Where we sail, while I like the 150 Genoa, a heavy 150 Genoa is extremely hard to tack with in light air, just when you want to use the 150 Genoa. The weight of the sail can be heavy for two reasons - One is if you get a regular performance Dacron thread weave that has more resin on it, that adds weight to the Genoa or if you get the way my Quantum sails were made up which was with a higher thread count (low stretch) Dacron, that is inherently heavier as well. Then adding a Sunbrella strip that does not show the air particulate over the years, the Sunbrella matl is heavy as well. So, in very light air, I wind up furling my sail to about a 130 or slightly less so I can tack okay and not have the sail hang up on the stays. But the 150 is great in winds over 6 knts and so that is most sailing conditions that we sail in except the dog days of August and a few other times of the year.

What I would recommend is first check out the Challenge website to at least understand that there are different thread counts that sailmakers use for Dacron sails. If you get Challenge "Performance" quality sails...just realize that the name is misleading as there are at least two grades better than that and those higher grades are the low stretch weave grades. If you sail a lot thru the year, I would recommend a higher weave Dacron sail matl as it will take many more years before the sail begins to stretch (and that is usually because you got stuck out there when a storm came in). In any case, whatever sail you purchase, recommend consider as an alternate to Sunbrella as the out er edge furling cover, see if the sailmaker can instead utilize sail material but just in a blue or other color that will not show the air particulate that will occur after a few years of sail use. Almost any color than white will hide the particulate and sail matl cover is a lot lighter than Sunbrella. But Sunbrella is okay as well, just that it adds to the weight of a 150, if that is the one you go with and just that a 150 is difficult to tack with in light winds like 5 knts. Above that, it should be okay.


Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Wash DC http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/07/2017 04:36:08
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7597 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2017 :  07:25:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
...but Larry is aboard a C-25, which is a substantially different boat.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3051 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2017 :  04:38:44  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dave is right about mentioning again that I have a Cat 25, since the sweet spot for using a 150 Genoa on a CAT 250 may be a narrower wind range - avoiding use of it unfurled in very light winds and furling it sooner than a Cat 25 in higher winds. Still, depending on the weight of the sail and your craving factor, the 150 genoa may be okay. The 130/135 Genoa will definitely be fine for our sailing region.

The thing is that you are in the perfect location to ask other sailors at your marina, if it the Wash Sailing Marina (and if not that one, then you are in the next one, the Old Town Alexandria Marina). The Wash Sailing Marina, besides all the sailboats they have land based, there must be close to 200 sailboats in the finger slips. I know there are plenty of other Catalina 25s and/or 250s in there since almost every time I go sailing, I see at least one and oftentimes 2-3 coming out of there for a sail. I would ask some of those sailors how they find using their furling Genoas. I believe you have a mix of some that have 150s and 130s from what I have observed. Though, I would consider Dave's input, noting any recommendations you get, was it based on a Cat 25s and 250s or only Cat 25s.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Wash DC http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/08/2017 04:40:28
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2163 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2017 :  22:09:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A 150 on a C250 is extraordinarily rare. I've only heard of one. The reason is probably the same reason Catalina quickly discontinued the tall mast rig - the boat is light, tender, and doesn't need that much canvas. I'd really think twice about putting anything more than a 135 on the boat, and even that may be more than you need. (Definitely get luff pad if you get a 135.) Accommodating a 150 would probably require a new furler and relocating the genoa track aft. And you'd have awful sail shape when reefing, or have to swap out sails frequently, which eliminates all of the convenience of a furler.

If you're near DC, the river is narrow and easy tacking of a small sail is important. If you're down past Acquia or Colonial Beach, maybe you have a little more width. It's been a generation since I was down there on a boat, and everything looks wide when you're 10 years old.

If you really want a large sail area for light winds, I'd consider a lightweight nylon drifter to hoist as needed. My C250 was rigged for one, with cam cleats on the gunwales in front of the transom seats. However, the sail itself did not come with the boat, so I never used the cam cleats.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Photobucket is holding my picture hostage!
----- 1998 C250WK #348 "Take Five" -----|-------- 1991 15' Trophy ----------|- 1985 14' Phantom -
---- Essington, PA on Delaware River -----|---------- Trailered to Lake Wallenpaupack ------------
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
4970 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2017 :  07:50:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If one hasn't sailed a C250, it's difficult to appreciate how much their design differences affect sail choice. The C25 displaces about 4550 lbs vs. the C250s 3600 lbs. The difference in weight results in less wetted surface. A heavier boat needs more surface area to float it, and that extra wetted surface area increases the boat's drag. That difference in both weight and drag means the C250 can be much more easily driven with less sail area. It also means that, like any sailboat, too much sail area can overpower the C250. C250 owners appear to almost universally agree that a 130 or 135 is the biggest practicable sail. Many owners are content with a 110.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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vdotmatrix
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2017 :  08:02:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you all...the c250came with what seemed like a much larger sail than on the other c250 we have. I posted images in another post of the jib sheet path the previous owner led the sheets to a block midway up on the rear stanchion...i thought it odd they would do this just to have ( and it must be a 150) a large sail like this. I always thought it was not catalina design. I saw the luff pad option on cat. Direct....
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
7597 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2017 :  14:03:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No "designer" would put a sheet block at the middle of a stanchion! Poor stanchion! I can imagine it at the base, but not really even that. There's a reason for having winches and cast aluminum tracks with lots of bolts for genoa sheets--they pull pretty hard! You got a Rube Goldberg rig. Time to make it right. A 130-135 is probably "right". My understanding from a sail maker is a 130 is commonly a 135 with a higher clew and thus a slightly shorter LP measurement--that's what I had on my C-25. Same with the 150-155, where the 155 is more of the deck-sweeper version of a sail that's the same size above the 150's clew.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/09/2017 14:17:58
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vdotmatrix
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2017 :  15:33:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
EXACTLY, let me find a picture of it
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

No "designer" would put a sheet block at the middle of a stanchion! Poor stanchion! I can imagine it at the base, but not really even that. There's a reason for having winches and cast aluminum tracks with lots of bolts for genoa sheets--they pull pretty hard! You got a Rube Goldberg rig. Time to make it right. A 130-135 is probably "right". My understanding from a sail maker is a 130 is commonly a 135 with a higher clew and thus a slightly shorter LP measurement--that's what I had on my C-25. Same with the 150-155, where the 155 is more of the deck-sweeper version of a sail that's the same size above the 150's clew.

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