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piseas
Treasurer
USA
1563 Posts |
 Initially Posted - 02/26/2010 : 14:06:39
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Check out this article in Mad Mariner.
We can talk later.
Steve A |
PiSeas II
2003 C250 WK #692
Port Captain, Newport Beach, CA
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JimB517
Past Commodore
USA
3225 Posts |
Response Posted - 02/26/2010 : 18:26:48
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I didn't see much in the article that was new. Here are my observations on operating my Cat 25 in large seas.
I've been in seas up to about 12 feet in my C25. Offshore, in deep water, with calm winds, there is very little to worry about. As the winds pick up it is really exciting to surf the large waves. The C25 will not surf well. I've had the boat up to 8.8 knots surfing 6 foot swells under spinnaker in about 20 knots of air. The boat will surf about 100 yards at a time. The load on the rudder and tiller become tremendous.
So long period ocean swells - nothing to worry about in deep water.
When waves begin to break is when you have to worry. The rule is thumb is that breaking waves greater than 1/2 your boat length can capsize you. For us that would be about 11 feet. Waves break in shallow water, over current lines, and when waves collide. When waves are breaking you should take them on the stern and let the white water run under you. Do not fight the tiller, a lite touch and in fact letting it go can be best.
Very short period, steep, square waves can be bone jarring, very uncomfortable, wet and dangerous. Heading upwind in steep 5 or 6 footers with square wave faces can be practically impossible in a C25 - especially under power. Keep the main up and driving. Fall off to a comfortable course. Don't rely on the motor - it may get dunked. Sail when at all possible. Steer around the steepest faces. At night this is impossible. Close pop top, dog it, close companionway, bolt the boards in, put latches on cockpit lockers. All hands don life jackets. Have strobes, whistles, and a MOB recovery system ready.
Close to home, I find sailing in waves to be lots of fun. If there is wind and 7 or 8 foot swells, I love to run out to the harbor mouth, drop in to a set, surf back in, turn around and do it again. If it gets too windy, wet or rough you can always head back to the slip. This is great practice for the day when you are 60 miles from home and have to deal with what the ocean is dishing out. For that day I have a double reefed main and a storm jib always on board. |
Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398 |
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redviking
Admiral
USA
969 Posts |
Response Posted - 02/27/2010 : 04:40:32
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Quote: "The typical 30-to-40-foot vessel looks large at the pier, but when you get out there with five-foot seas, it makes the boat feel much smaller than it is. The real danger comes when you try to turn. It doesn't take very big waves to make a boat capsize."
Probably written by the same folks who made the rules for the Americas Cup debacle. We gotta be afraid of 5 foot waves now? Maybe a newbie on a C25 with the engine cavitating, but come on man! 30 to 40 foot boats? Danger of capsize? I love keyboard sailors
sten
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JimB517
Past Commodore
USA
3225 Posts |
Response Posted - 02/27/2010 : 10:58:33
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| Yeah, what they called rough seas in that article I consider a typical summer afternoon off Catalina Island. I'm talking real rough seas. |
Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398 |
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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant
Djibouti
9999 Posts |
Response Posted - 02/27/2010 : 12:45:37
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| Keep in mind that this article is not written specifically about or for sailboats... I will offer that I would take my old C-25 over my current Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ in really rough seas, from the point of view of stability and ride comfort. My 600 lb. outboard is no match for the 1900 lb. lead keel. (However I have appreciated my windshield, wipers, and hardtop in some wild-and-woolly seas around The Race.) The article does recommend, as did Jim, going out close to home in some "testy" conditions to get the feel for how the boat handles them and what strategy works best for you. For most of us, the C-25 and C-250 can take more than we can--it's a matter of becoming confident in that fact, and being ready for the unexpected. |
Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".
  
Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge. |
Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/27/2010 12:46:07 |
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piseas
Treasurer
USA
1563 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 11:28:25
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Jim, glad you chimed in. Good points and terrific suggestion re practice close to home. One or two time builds up ones confidence. Same goes for MOB, etc. I myself dont like going out in 6-8+ seas. But like Dave says, you must be ready for the unexpected!
Steve A |
PiSeas II
2003 C250 WK #692
Port Captain, Newport Beach, CA
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore
USA
2956 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 08:18:46
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Wow, talk about rough seas! I just ran across a news article recounting a 680 foot cruise ship that was severely damaged this week by three freak waves off the coast of Spain. Two people were killed.
Cruise Lines spokesman Michael Maratheftis said, "It was three waves, one after the other. The damage was done by the second and the third waves. We are talking about waves that exceeded 10 meters in height. This was unforeseen and unpredicted because the weather was not really that bad."
There isn't much you can do to anticipate or prepare for freak waves. You just hope you're not in the neighborhood when they roll through. Thank goodness they're rare.
The full article can be read here. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_mediterranean_cruise_ship_accident
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Steve Milby "Captiva Wind II" C&C 35 Landfall
Past Commodore |
Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/04/2010 08:20:19 |
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windsong
Captain
USA
308 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 08:44:54
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Jim,
Thanks for the thoughts. I'll consider them carefully in rough weather.
I saw 9.8 kts multiple times on my GPS surfing some 6 footers in deep water off our SC coast one day last year. It was like being back in my Hobie days. I've also been stopped dead by square waves in Cape Fear.
Question: Do you ever wish you had a third reef? At 20 kts apparent, Windsong still gets overpowered on the second reef, and I've got nowhere to go but bare poles and an outboard. We've had a very windy winter here, and I've sailed in the second reef point more than any other configuration. I know some people would say, "just don't go out," but as long as I can shorten sail, I've found the boat handles beautifully. A third reef would basically be a trysail, but why not? |
Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC |
Edited by - windsong on 03/04/2010 08:54:22 |
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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant
Djibouti
9999 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 09:15:41
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quote:
Originally posted by windsong
...A third reef would basically be a trysail, but why not?
Why not, indeed. Have you tried your full jib/genny alone? That puts a lot more sail down low, and with the cars back, it will stay flatter down low and twist off at the top. The C-25 moves along very nicely that way--the C-250 mast is further forward, so I don't know about the helm balance. |
Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".
Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge. |
Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/04/2010 09:16:42 |
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delliottg
Master Marine Consultant
USA
2685 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 09:55:11
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| Our 250 moves along very nicely under jib alone, although I've only tried it with our 110 thus far. |
David
Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --
Unique Treen come take a look, become a fan, and follow us on Facebook |
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redviking
Admiral
USA
969 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 06:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by windsong
Question: Do you ever wish you had a third reef? At 20 kts apparent, Windsong still gets overpowered on the second reef, and I've got nowhere to go but bare poles and an outboard. We've had a very windy winter here, and I've sailed in the second reef point more than any other configuration. I know some people would say, "just don't go out," but as long as I can shorten sail, I've found the boat handles beautifully. A third reef would basically be a trysail, but why not?
I like the way you think. A third reef is a VERY good idea and will give you sail control options that are really required by any vessel that encounters rough conditions with an OUTBOARD auxillary. If you really want to get fancy, consider a small gale sail - jib - that attaches quickly outside of the furler like what ATN sells. A furled jib or genny is going to put the center of everything too high to really be productive in terms of forward progress and quality of ride. Plow forward under control with the elements working for you and your C25 will be very happy in a lot of conditions. My wife and I think we exceeded design loads and designed usage many a time and I'll bet Jims boat has some stories.
sten |
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JohnP
Admiral
Maldives
874 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 12:46:54
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I've seen three reefng lines on only one C25 that I recall - hull number 1498.
And all the lines were brought back to the cockpit.
I suppose Paul is ready for anything the San Francisco Bay can throw at him. Maybe our Mainsheet C25 Technical Editor can tell us when and how he uses all this spaghetti.
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JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
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PCP777
Captain
USA
493 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 13:59:00
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quote:
Originally posted by windsong
Jim,
Thanks for the thoughts. I'll consider them carefully in rough weather.
I saw 9.8 kts multiple times on my GPS surfing some 6 footers in deep water off our SC coast one day last year. It was like being back in my Hobie days. I've also been stopped dead by square waves in Cape Fear.
Question: Do you ever wish you had a third reef? At 20 kts apparent, Windsong still gets overpowered on the second reef, and I've got nowhere to go but bare poles and an outboard. We've had a very windy winter here, and I've sailed in the second reef point more than any other configuration. I know some people would say, "just don't go out," but as long as I can shorten sail, I've found the boat handles beautifully. A third reef would basically be a trysail, but why not?
I don't get anything close to that sea state but I will tell you Stephanos does very well under head sail alone. When I get over powered I just drop the main. Then if I'm still getting beat up I just roll up some head sail. |
Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX
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Edited by - PCP777 on 03/05/2010 14:00:05 |
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JimB517
Past Commodore
USA
3225 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 14:05:39
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I've never seen anything the boat couldn't handle with a double reefed main and a a 60% storm jib, and the storm jib only runs about 1/2 way up the forestay. If it got worse from there I'd drop the main.
By the way,
That photo of "a C25 with a 3rd reef" is NOT a 3rd reef. If it is, then I have that. The "1st reef" about 6 inches up is, in fact, the flattening reef. I use that most often along with the cunningham. The next cringles are the 1st and 2nd reef. |
Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398 |
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JohnP
Admiral
Maldives
874 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 15:16:14
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Oh, rats! You spoiled my "bait". I knew Paul would have a hard time not commenting on his own rigging. I was gonna make him work for his pay!
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JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
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watercayman
1st Mate
Cayman Islands
32 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 20:22:53
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While I'm not quite ready to try the type of waves Jim was talking about, I thought the photo might be appropriate to pull out here. One of my favorites:
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Mike Barrowman
Skol
1999 Catalina 250WK - #414
Cayman Islands |
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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant
Djibouti
9999 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/06/2010 : 09:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by watercayman
...I thought the photo might be appropriate to pull out here...
Passage did something like that once--went airborne off a big wake, and then, with a big BANG, dove through the following wave, with green water over the cabintop and into the cockpit! (...at least that's how I explained my soaked pants...)
Did I forget to tell Bruce about that one?  |
Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".
Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge. |
Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/06/2010 09:34:13 |
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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant
USA
2030 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/09/2010 : 18:19:58
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| The quoted Captain Figular was my six pack instructor. Ex NJ state trooper, nice guy. His audience is the Jersey Shore small stink pot community, So, whaddayasayin? They need all the help they can get and, indeed, need to stay home when there's 4-5 footers out there. |
Lady Kay IV, Dragonfly 25 # 54 Former C30#618-C250WB#618-C42#76 |
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant
USA
1221 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/09/2010 : 19:11:33
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| Dave - now that's what I call "sailin' " - through the air! |
Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032
Association Member ~ Port Captain ~ Stratford & Milford, CT |
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Ed Cassidy
Captain
USA
359 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/09/2010 : 19:33:59
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| I wonder if the boat survived? Given the size of the swell and the fact that it was breaking, I can't imagine the water was deep enough to avoid landing on the keel. Anyone have the next few pictures in the sequence? |
Ed
HisHorse
1979 SR/SK #1393
Green Cove Springs, FL |
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JimB517
Past Commodore
USA
3225 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/09/2010 : 20:39:46
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| that's the kind of landing where you are glad you have sistered the rusted keel bolts. |
Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398 |
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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant
USA
2819 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/10/2010 : 04:57:22
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This raises an interesting point. A misconception might exist that heavy seas require maximum power and the largest outboard that can be fitted. From my experience on Great Lakes swell, that is not the case as full power from an 8 hp will launch the boat off the swell to suffer pounding when it falls into the trough. Six mph is too much. About half of that works, which is about half power from an 8 hp.
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Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site |
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jbkayaker
Navigator
USA
246 Posts |
Response Posted - 03/10/2010 : 18:37:04
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| A way to more or less safely verify first hand what Arlyn wrote is to play in heavy swells with a water scooter. I found that with slow speed I could gently ride up and over waves. With a little more speed I could plow thru the top of the wave and still have a comfortable wave crossing. With yet more speed you jump off the top and smack into the trough. |
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Coping With Rough Seas
