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JanS48
Navigator

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USA
141 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/16/2021 : 21:32:09

Greetings everyone - what is the proper size line and length for the jib sheets? My C25 is a STD rig with a 125 jib.
WM sells Samson 3/8 XLS for 1.39 per ft. is that a reasonable choice? Should I be looking elsewhere? I would prefer a quality line.
Thanks
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2021 : 07:38:02

3/8" and 75 feet overall if you use a cow hitch in middle of the two.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2021 : 08:40:44

...and I recommend polyester single-braid like New England Ropes Regatta--it's comfortable on the hands, coils easily, and lays nicely without "hockling" (or whatever the correct word is).

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2021 : 10:31:01

quote:
and I recommend polyester single-braid like New England Ropes Regatta--it's comfortable on the hands, coils easily, and lays nicely without "hockling" (or whatever the correct word is).

I firmly second that.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2021 : 11:22:39

It should be pointed out that, if you have self-tailing winches, the diameter of the rope is primarily dependent upon what works well with them. An undersized rope will slip, and an oversized rope can be more difficult to set into the track when you're in a hurry. A single-braid flattens-out more easily than a double-braid, so a larger size may be necessary, depending on your winches (this doesn't matter if theyr'e not self-tailers).

As for length, the "lazy" (windward) sheet needs to be long enough to pass around the mast and shrouds and out to the clew when the sail is eased way out on a really broad reach. Also, you'll want at least a couple of turns around the winch so it's ready if you need to gybe quickly. Add a little for at least a figure-8 knot in the end, to prevent it slipping through the sheet block when (not "if") it ever gets away from you. Bill's recommendation of 75 feet with a cow hitch is probably good with your 125. It's what Catalina recommended for a "Genoa Sheet."

The single line with a cow hitch is pretty common, but I went with separate lines in red and green, so I can easily sort out the mess that sometimes piles up on the cockpit sole. With eye splices in the ends, I use a very small shackle with a no-snag pin (uses an allen wrench) set with locktite blue. Some people argue against using a metal shackle, which can be treacherous when you're on the foredeck with the clew flapping wildly, but I'm personally not sold on a soft-shackle for this. The small shackle I use is almost completely buried in the eyes of the two lines.

Just a different perspective on the same thing.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Edited by - Lee Panza on 03/17/2021 13:18:53

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1889 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2021 : 00:28:35

Jan,

Like Lee Panza, I use separate port & stbd color coded jib sheets, removing them from each sail while putting it away.

I attach them to the clew with bowline knots. On a smaller boat, I had hardware at the jib clew, and got whacked by it a few times when going forward to lower the jib on a windy day.

I'm not a fan of cow hitches, after wrestling a few of them to remove jib sheets without resorting to a knife. A cow hitch might be more appropriate for a small, unballasted daysailer with only one headsail option.

I carry two pairs of jib sheets in polyester double braid, one pair of 3/8" x 38' for heavier air, and a second pair of 5/16" x 47' for light air with larger sails up to a 170% drifter. I also use a stopper knot several feet from the end. Even with the knot at the lead car, the tail is still within easy reach from the cockpit.

P.S. Also check Defender Industries prices on New England and Samson brand lines. I've also found an occasional bargain on Ebay, but of course that's hit and miss on availability and selection.

� Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 03/18/2021 00:53:12

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2021 : 07:19:57

Sometimes logic fails us. When we look at jib sheets attached to the clew with two bowline hitches, logic tells us that those two knots are heavier than a single cow hitch, and their bulkiness will make them more likely to snag on the rigging when we tack in light air. But, despite that logic, most of the racers who I know attach their jib sheets with two bowlines. If your jib sheets are snagging on the rigging when you tack in light air, the remedy is to shift your weight and that of your crew to the lee side each time you tack in light air. By doing so, the boat heels to leeward, the masthead leans outboard of the chainplates, and the clew of the jib hangs to leeward of the shrouds, not snagging on them. In extremely light air, or, if you don't have enough crew weight to heel the boat enough, then the only remedy is to have a crew member go forward and walk the sail past the rigging during each tack.

I crewed on a 40' boat that used metal shackles to attach their jib sheets, and we simply needed to stay away from them when they were flapping wildly. We only approached them when they were under control. I would never use snap shackles on the jibsheets, because they are very prone to becoming accidentally unsnapped.

Probably the greatest danger is if the jibsheet is attached with a cow hitch and the knot breaks. In a strong wind, the big round metal clew of the sail is flailing with no way of controlling it other than to furl the sail. If two separate jibsheets are attached with two bowlines, and, if one breaks or becomes untied, you can control the clew with the remaining jibsheet while you re-tie or replace the other one.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2021 : 08:24:41

Have used a cow hitch on several headsails now for over seventeen years. Never had one budge or break. I have gone as far as sowing a black thread into the center of the hitch to see if it might move. Nada.

Here in Florida, we don't need to remove sails unless we have the threat of a hurricane. In those cases, I don't remove the sheets. I unfurl the sail, take down and wrap sheets up still connected to the sail. Sheets and sail go into sail bag.

I'll also add my two cents about Regatta braid. It is very supple and doesn't kink. But my current set of sheets, (Regatta Braid), are about seven years old and are showing signs of chafe and wear. My last set of jib sheets were Sta-Set, lasted ten years and hardly showed any signs of wear at all.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - Davy J on 03/18/2021 08:27:58

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2021 : 10:52:49

Steve, you brought to mind something I hadn�t even thought of, since I�ve been using furlers for so long. For anyone with hank-ons, who want to be able to change headsails quickly (not just racers, but anyone else when the wind quickly increases), wouldn�t separate sheets be preferred over a single with a cow hitch?

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2021 : 11:20:30

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Panza

Steve, you brought to mind something I hadn�t even thought of, since I�ve been using furlers for so long. For anyone with hank-ons, who want to be able to change headsails quickly (not just racers, but anyone else when the wind quickly increases), wouldn�t separate sheets be preferred over a single with a cow hitch?

I agree. Earlier, Leon observed that a cow hitch can gradually tighten until it becomes nearly impossible to untie it. If you need to change sails periodically, a cow hitch would not be the best choice.

All of the ways that we've discussed are functional. There's nothing wrong with any of those methods, but each has it's positive and negative qualities. The goal should be to use the method that works best for the way you use your boat.

I think the reason why two bowlines are so widely used isn't because they're perfect with no negatives, but because they're secure, they're easy to tie and untie and, in most cases, they have fewer negatives than other methods.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2021 : 16:59:45

I use a clove hitch on a single 75 ft line for my 135 genoa. It works better than a cow hitch because it can easily be undone at the end of the season.
For folks who use two different color sheets, may I suggest a double fisherman�s knot that passes through the cringle? It�s a nice-looking knot and it has a very short bight that won�t snag on any shroud.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 03/18/2021 17:01:37

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2021 : 18:37:39

Funny... When I wrote my "ad" for Regatta single-braid, I added something about my experience with the cow hitch, which after a season (I had a roller-furler) was almost impossible to break loose with a marlin-spike. I also suggested that the vertical loop of the cow hitch was prone to catching on a shroud in a tack... Then for some reason I decided to delete that stuff and just post the recommendation of the single-braid.

And despite my annual exasperation with the cow hitch, I kept using it, spring after spring, and then swearing at it, fall after fall...

Maybe the deletion was due to embarrassment or just bad memories.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/18/2021 18:43:23

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2021 : 05:41:00

One of our C-22 national champions came up with an idea that I like and use with the single line /cowhitch approach. He made up a short piece of blue Amsteel line with an eye splice in one end, overall about 12 inches long. This short line goes through the genoa sheet's cowhitch loop and back through the eye splice and pulled tight so it is snug on the cowhitch. Then this short piece is attached to the clew of the headsail using a bowline. Two advantages to this device: 1. leaving 2-3 inches of this line between sail and sheet gives a good place to attach the whisker pole, and 2. for quick headsail changes (or at the end of the day) there is only one knot to untie. Also, the Ansteel line is, as you all know, exceptionally strong.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2021 : 05:50:35

The guy I raced with on the S2-7.9 used separate genoa sheets tied to the sail with bowline knots. During a tack, the foredeck crew had to be ready to help the genoa around in light air, and also to Skirt the sail (lift the foot over the lifelines to trim the sail in). He had 3/8" line for general use as well as a pair of 5/16" lines for light air.