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Sail w/out swing keel cable?

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Ramona82
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/12/2021 : 19:49:22

Has anyone ever sailed their C-25, or C-22, without the swing keel cable attached to reduce drag? Or is the drag caused by the cable insignificant? Possible safety concerns too great to risk it? I know removing the cable isn't allowed in class racing, but was wondering if anyone has tried it.

John Potetz
1982 C-25 SR/SK #3363
Ramona
San Diego, CA

Edited by - Ramona82 on 02/12/2021 19:50:36

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2021 : 06:36:12

I've never known anyone who disconnected their keel cable to reduce drag. Logic tells me that it would reduce drag, but what is your goal?

If the goal is to gain a racing advantage, most racing is done under PHRF regulations. PHRF-NW 78.1 requires that: "A boat's owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules...." A brief online search reveals that Chesapeake Bay PHRF and most, if not all, PHRF chapters have the same requirement. Thus, all racing under PHRF is class racing. Disconnecting the keel cable would violate class, and PHRF, rules.

As a general principle, I like to have every device on a boat working. The purpose of the swing keel, among other things, is to enable the boat to operate in shallower water, and to escape from a grounding. Disconnecting the cable defeats that purpose. What's worse, effectively the boat becomes a 5 1/2' draft boat, instead of a 4' draft boat like a fixed keel C25. A boat with 5 1/2' draft is excluded from many cruising grounds and anchorages and opportunities to beach the boat for lunch.

If the goal is to achieve a higher degree of metaphysical perfection in the boat's performance, I doubt that you would be able to sense the improvement, but that's just a guess.

If you're going to give up the shoal draft and other benefits of the swing keel, it ought to be in exchange for some other significant, tangible benefit. I don't see a significant benefit that would justify it.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Ramona82
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2021 : 11:36:19

No goal, I'm just curious. I'm aware of it being illegal for racing, but wanted to know if it would noticeably reduce drag. If it's insignificant then I'd definitely rather have the swing keel operating.

John Potetz
1982 C-25 SR/SK #3363
Ramona
San Diego, CA

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2021 : 11:57:21

To set a fair, standard PHRF (or other) handicap for a boat model, they have to assume all boats of that model are fundamentally the same. The simplest way is to go by class rules (for boats that have them). However, the class rules for the C-25 include the following: "The cable may be removed or attached along the trailing edge of the keel." Apparently somebody thinks that might be worthwhile, but it seems to me if you do either, and you ever want to lift the keel, you'll have to go diving... The "trailing edge" idea could be a way to see if you can detect any advantage.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2021 : 11:18:11

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

...the class rules for the C-25 include the following: "The cable may be removed or attached along the trailing edge of the keel."

I've noticed that, through the years, some dumb provisions have been written into our racing rules, and this is certainly one of them. I would be interested in knowing who proposed this provision, and what rationale was suggested in support of it. If I had to guess, I�d guess that someone pointed out that the C22s allow it, and it reduces their drag. While both those are true, neither of them justifies the adoption of the rule for C25s. �Monkey see, monkey do� doesn�t justify anything, and the underlying principle of the class rules is that the boats should all race rigged as they were originally designed. Swingers were originally designed and equipped with the keel cable attached. Why should swingers be granted an exemption from that principle? Enabling them to go faster is unfair to the fin and wing keel boats, that can�t unhook their keel cable. The last I checked, PHRF already rated swingers a wee fraction faster than fin keels. They don't need an added advantage to make them even more competitive with fins and wings. Why should the class rules favor swingers over fins and wings?

I no longer own a C25, so I have no self interest in the subject, but the class rules should make sense and be fair.

The exemption should be deleted from the class rules.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2021 : 13:56:58

I'll add that the class rules for C-25s, as with many family- and budget-oriented boats, generally do and should make racing attractive to most owners, as-is; no advantages allowed for "juicing up" the boat beyond its stock design. (Hard-core tuners can choose hard-core boats.) The C-25 swing keel design includes a cable for lifting the keel--how could it not? The design also includes other features that aren't ideal for racing, but to be a trailerable, shoal draft cruiser. (The Capri 25, for example, is another matter.) I would agree that cable rule (also in the C-250 rules) is a poor idea.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Lee Panza
Captain

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465 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2021 : 23:09:53

If I may, I'd like to turn this thread in a little different direction, based on the OP.

It's commonly understood that the cable can set up a humming sound, depending on the degree of tautness and the speed through the water. So, removing the cable would eliminate that. If one never expects or intends to use it, there's probably no need to have it on there.

Now, I personally like to keep just a little slack on mine; not enough to produce an audible hum but not so little that the remaining few turns around the winch drum get totally disorganized. But that last point is because I expect to be able to use the winch and I don't want to have to sort out those few turns of cable first. Where I sail there are places where the water gets skinny, depending on the state of the tide, and I've stuck the keel in the mud more than once. All I have to do is crank it up a few turns and then head back out toward deeper water. I consider this to be one of the most important features of my boat, because I enjoy inshore sailing instead of just staying out in the middle. And this is completely independent of wanting to haul it out onto the trailer that I no longer have (and haven't had reason to replace yet).

So John, if you have no need for that cable, I'd say "good riddance."

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2021 : 23:20:11

After a little thought, I'll toss out another reason to keep that cable, although it contradicts my previous posting.

If I sailed in waters with submerged obstacles, like tree stumps in a reservoir, I'd probably keep some tension on the cable to catch the keel if it got pushed up and then dropped as it passed over such an obstruction. I'd prefer that the cable take the shock rather than the fiberglass at the head of the keel case. And I'd just accept that hum as evidence of that safety mechanism.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Edited by - Lee Panza on 02/15/2021 23:21:36

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2021 : 22:16:39

I don't think Steve or I care whether somebody wants to remove their cable to stop it from humming if they don't care about lifting the keel... The OP question, leading to the class rule issue, had to do with doing so for a performance advantage, as in class racing or to beat the established handicap in a PHRF fleet. We believe the class rules should keep boats to their designs. In the case of a lifting keel or centerboard, that logically includes a working lifting system--no?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/16/2021 22:18:54

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2021 : 09:04:19

"It's your boat and you can do whatever you want." But that isn't the kind of answer most people are looking for when they come here. Most people want a discussion of the pros and cons of the matter. They don't want to simply accept our opinions. They want us to provide them enough information and reasoning so that they can make an informed decision.

It occurred to me that we still haven't adequately discussed how significant the drag is that is caused by the cable. The degree of significance depends on how you're using the boat. If you're using the boat for cruising, then you'll gain a very small amount of speed and pointing ability, but you'll give up your shoal draft and your ability to easily escape a grounding. It's your choice whether you're willing to make that trade-off in exchange for a very small increase in speed and pointing ability. I think most of us would not.

If you're using the boat for racing, then that small amount of speed will probably be more important to you. Racers don't go gunkholing. The boat's draft might preclude you from taking a shortcut across a shoal, but in most races, draft is not a significant issue. To race competitively, your boat must be capable of as much speed as the fastest boat in the race. If another boat is faster than yours, then you must overcome his superior speed by superior skill and creativity, and winning by your brilliance is probably the hardest and most unlikely way to win a race against a faster boat. So, if your competitor is disconnecting his keel cable, you must do the same to avoid the disadvantage. In a race, even a small speed advantage all around the race course adds up to a significant advantage overall.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/17/2021 09:07:09

Ramona82
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2021 : 09:12:56

After some thought, I'm going to keep the cable attached. I'll have all brand new lifting hardware so I might as well take advantage of being able to safely lift the keel, even though I won't be using it unless I absolutely need to. But like Lee mentioned, keeping a little tension on the cable in case the keel did hit something that lifted it up quickly and again dropped it, sounds like a very sound idea, and something along these lines was my biggest concern with possibly sailing it without the cable. I may employ this if I'm in a dicey/unknown area, but the San Diego bay is well mapped and overall fairly deep in most parts so I may leave the line slack, but I can play with that as I become more accustom to the boat.

Thanks for all the input!

John Potetz
1982 C-25 SR/SK #3363
Ramona
San Diego, CA

Edited by - Ramona82 on 02/17/2021 09:24:37

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2021 : 15:24:01

Lee has perhaps the most important reason for keeping the cable intact, other than being able to retract the keel for skinny water and haul-outs. and this has been discussed before. hit a submerged object and that cable, if kept a bit taut, could help you avoid cracking the keel trunk (BELOW THE WATERLINE) when the keel settles back down. In a club race years ago, we got too close to a channel marker that was the windward mark. Water level was down a bit so the buoy cable was at an angle and my keel caught on the cable. I did not have the lifting cable taut, keel lifted up and came back down and put a hairline crack in the keel trunk. I was taking on about a gallon a day. could have been a lot worse. I had the traditional rig, so the box came off easily to access the keel trunk, and we were able to repair the crack from inside the boat, but it still cost me a haul-out and several hundred bucks to fix. Good news is we didn't have to cut into a dinette seat, and that with several extra layers of glass on the keel trunk, it is now a lot stronger. FYI, the back of the keel trunk is what stops the keel when you lower it so that is where the damage from a fall will most likely be.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2021 : 21:22:28

I know you said you�ve decided to keep the cable but would like to interject my thoughts for future reference. :)

IMHO, unless you are a really, really good sailor, any small speed gain you might get by removing the cable will most likely be offset by less than perfect helmsmanship and sail tuning. Could even be offset by poor rig tuning.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Ramona82
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2021 : 11:21:00

Very good point, Gary. Being that this is my first sailboat, my experience would put me in the category of complete crap sailor. I've been lurking around sailboats for some time though, but all my knowledge has been gleaned from books. I have no real experience save for my 2 day ASA basic keelboat sailing course and sailing around the bay in a buddy's sailboat. So with that, I've decided I will keep the cable attached at all times and replace it every 2 yrs or so when I re-do the bottom paint. I'm actually due to have her hauled out in a few weeks. Pretty stoked to paint her bottom and install my new Rudder Craft rudder. The stock rudder was long overdue to be replaced and being a noob, I wanted to make sure that I'm expending my energy in more important areas, like not running into other objects, instead of wasting it all fighting that poorly designed stock rudder. I've scooted the boat around via it's outboard when moving to different mooring balls and even at those slow speeds I could tell the tiller was gonna be a handful. I didn't pay much for her, so I easily justified the expensive upgrade.

John Potetz
1982 C-25 SR/SK #3363
Ramona
San Diego, CA

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
128 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2021 : 18:14:52

In salt water on a mooring. The fouling cable has to come up into the winch with shells and salt water not so good so I have an iron shackle on the keel and a SS hook on the cable so for most of the time no cable in the water to foul and degrade. Easy for a 75 yo to duck dive down and connect

Graeme Bishop boomeroo Australia
C25 SK

Sailynn
Navigator

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178 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2021 : 00:42:57

The C22 NSA Class Rules do not allow removing the keel cable. I have been a member for over 30 years and during that time it has never been allowed. I am currently serving on the C22 NSA Board as Rear Commodore.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Ramona82
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2021 : 08:14:35

Boomeroo, I like your approach to keeping the swing cable out of the water while not in use. What type of shackle and SS hook are you using? And out of curiosity, how did you come about a Catalina 25 in Australia? Do they sell Catalina yachts down there? Or was this thing somehow sailed all the way from the states to Australia?

John Potetz
1982 C-25 SR/SK #3363
Ramona
San Diego, CA

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2021 : 16:47:50

Lynn,
Like you, I had a c-25. The class rules are similar. although it made no sense, the outboard rules were the same, for a while. Keep the keel fully down while class racing.
On another matter, for heaven's sake, guys, do not remove the swing keel cable. For the C-25, whenever you have water deep enough, keep the keel fully down. If in salt water, plan on replacing the keel cable every year or two. In fresh water, every 5 years. While at the dock, or mooring, you DO NOT want that keel to drop unexpectedly, it will SINK your boat! that's 1,500 lbs of material. a fiberglass keel trunk will have no chance, and if the keel free-falls, the damage will be below the waterline!

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Ramona82
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2021 : 11:39:04

DavidP, I've gone back and forth on this and have decided (again) to leave the cable attached. I could see maybe detaching it if it sat for long periods in a slip and wasn't getting used much, but I plan on sailing mine often as I can. So, I'm going to let safety win out for good reason.

John Potetz
1982 C-25 SR/SK #3363
Ramona
San Diego, CA

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2021 : 18:56:34

quote:
Originally posted by Ramona82

Or was this thing somehow sailed all the way from the states to Australia?

Several years ago one of our members told us about an elderly sailor who sailed a Catalina 25 into a marina in California. The man said he had sailed it from Australia to the states. It had a pop top, and the pop top had been crudely reinforced with 2x4 lumber. Our member posted some photos of the boat, which had obviously been outfitted for long distance sailing. We asked the member to invite him to join us on the forum, so we could hear the whole story, but we never heard from him.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Ramona82
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2021 : 09:47:04

I think I read about this particular elderly sailor over on sailnet.com! A guy mentioned having spoken with an elderly sailor who sailed into San Diego from Australia in a over-built Catalina 25. I can't find the post or thread for the life of me, but he did say it was impressive how heavily modified this guy's C-25 was. I wish I could see those pics...

John Potetz
1982 C-25 SR/SK #3363
Ramona
San Diego, CA

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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396 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2021 : 13:37:02

Hi Ramona82

Definitely leave the cable in place ! Without the cable, the keel will most definitely end up against a hard stop (the keel trunk) which is not intended to be structural. Many a swing keel have sunk due to cable failure and this will have the same result only slower and maybe just an expensive repair job. Whenever a swing keel is moored or in the slip, the keel should be down. If the slip is too shallow, leaving the keel up is acceptable because the mud or sand bottom will most likely stop it before any damage will occur.

Brian & JoAnne Gleissner
Knot So Fast
1984 Catalina 25, SR/SK
Traditional Interior
Lake Candlewood, CT

Edited by - BCG-Woodbury on 03/15/2021 14:28:49

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
128 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2021 : 19:21:07

Hi, sent email with info and details. Catalina sent mold to australia and England in the 70,s for local manufacture as Boomeroo yachts in aust. And Jaguar in UK. Later they fully imported the catalina 22 and 25. I had a boomeroo 22 to race in late 70,s and class racing made no difference if old boomeroo or newer catalina 22.

quote:
Originally posted by Ramona82

Boomeroo, I like your approach to keeping the swing cable out of the water while not in use. What type of shackle and SS hook are you using? And out of curiosity, how did you come about a Catalina 25 in Australia? Do they sell Catalina yachts down there? Or was this thing somehow sailed all the way from the states to Australia?

Graeme Bishop boomeroo Australia
C25 SK

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2021 : 20:24:05

Haven't had problem with cable. Years ago used ideas from C22 group and glued piece of carpet at front of trunk and cut size to fit each side of keel. Stopped slap noise and gave piece of mind to protect trunk where keel rests in extended position. have replaced cable and fittings with CD kit.

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