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Joey
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/04/2020 : 14:00:30

Hi everyone!
I've been "eavesdropping" on these wonderful threads for 3 years now since I bought my boat, and I've learned and enjoyed much through the many conversations and posts.

I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on upgrading from a hank on jib to a 135 roller furling head sail. I'd love some feedback: I have four estimates (Precision, Quantum, Northsail, and Ulman (Catalina Direct). Northsail seems too expensive, the others are between (roughly) $1300-$1500. I like Ulman, and with Catalina Direct they have a few in stock already and I wouldn't have to wait 6-8 weeks. But here's the specific question: The rep at Catalina Direct said I don't need the "optional" foam luff because on a 25 foot boat I won't really see any benefit, even though on their website it notes that "A foam luff provides better sail shape over a wide range of wind conditions. It automatically flattens the sail as it is furled creating less heal, more drive and a happier crew when conditions get rough." Their Ulman sail does not include this. The other quotes I received seemed to include this and assume this is more of a "given" than an "option".

What is your opinion? If you're ordering a new 135 furling headsail, would you get the foam luff?

(I'm needing to weigh out my expenses...with the new Harkin furler, the sail, and 3 hours of rigging labor at $100 p/h, I'm having some issue addressing my wife's question: why are we spending on a new sail half of what we spent on the entire boat!?)

Thanks!

Joey Coffman
Still Time '82 C25 SR #3001
San Diego, CA
Prescott, AZ

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2020 : 20:31:48

Joey:

Most of the time, a Catalina 25 is primarily driven by it's headsail. That sail is its drive unit.

Think about buying an older model automobile or pickup truck with a worn-out motor. You got a "good deal" on the purchase, but then you could easily spend half again as much for a new motor. The old motor still works, poorly, but to end up with a dependable vehicle that will perform like the more expensive ones you had passed over, you really need to replace that broken down old powerplant.

Do you have any idea what it would cost to re-power an older automotive vehicle? Half the purchase price of the vehicle itself is probably not unreasonable.

So, do you try to find a "bargain" motor that you'll never have much confidence in or do you buy a unit that you know will be reliable and will will last as long as you own the vehicle (thereby making it superior to the more expensive used vehicles with their high-mileage motors)?

The difference in the performance of your trusty vessel could be undeniable, especially when you're beating to weather and you have to shorten sail a little.

But if this reasoning isn't enough, just wait until your Admiral sees how much easier it is to furl that sail up when you're done sailing (especially if conditions are "challenging"). Not to mention how easily you can reef it somewhat when the wind pipes up.

Then, she'll understand.

PS: The foam luff, if it's implemented properly, does make a big difference when you need to shorten sail.

PPS: Not really for comparison, but to maybe provide some perspective, I spent over $2,500 about 5 years ago on a custom 95% jib. And I don't race (at least, not against OTHER boats). It's a fancy, spectra-reinforced dacron and it's cut to my preferences. You may never feel the need to splurge like that, but I expect the sail to last as long as I'm still sailing, and I'm just 72! And during that time it'll be like having a Mercedes motor in a comfy Ford sedan. Woo hoo!

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2020 : 20:49:03

Welcome Joey! I lurked here for a few years before we bought our C-25--this forum (then hosted by Trailersailor.com) was part of the reason for our choice.

Your wife's question will be answered shortly, with an exclamation point I predict. It'll be a whole new sailing experience! One of the things we enjoyed most, especially on an evening sail to nowhere or a blustery, gusty afternoon, was leaving the sail cover on and pulling out the genny alone--nice drive, much less heel in gusts, and as I've said here too often, "Pull one string and you're sailing; pull another and you're all done!"

We reefed or doused our main, or left it down to begin with, before ever reefing our 130% genny. (I think the 5% less was from a higher clew.) So while we didn't have a foam luff (on a sail and furler from our P.O.), it didn't mean much to us. If we were sailing, it was on a full genny with or without all or part of the main. That was especially useful with my Admiral aboard--although she wasn't afraid of heeling--she knew we had 1900 lbs. of lead down there, and that if a boat wasn't heeling, it wasn't going.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2020 : 21:00:11

...and as Lee says, the headsail is the main driver on a mast-head rig like this. It also has a considerably lower "center of effort" than the mains'l, meaning less heeling force for the driving force it can create. That's why my theory is to reduce the main if reduction is called for, down to the point where pointing ability and helm balance are affected too much for your purposes. The bigger the genny, the less those things are affected as the main is reduced. If you're racing or trying to get to a distant upwind destination, pointing can be important--if neither, then maybe not so much. (Although the old saying is if there are two sailboats on the same tack on the same body of water, there's a race going on!)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/04/2020 21:10:21

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2020 : 06:42:59

When I bought a new genoa for my C&C 35, the North rep said he didn't recommend the foam luff. There appears to be a difference of opinion among sailmakers, and consequently, there is a difference of opinions among sailors as well.

The CD rep told you that you don't need the "optional" foam luff because on a 25 foot boat you won't really see any benefit. Why would he say that? He knows that a C25 isn't used to sail in the most severe storm conditions. C25 owners stay close to shelter, where they can duck in if it becomes too rough. He knows C25s aren't typically equipped with three reefs in their mainsails, so, even with a deeply furled jib, they aren't equipped to continue sailing in a really severe storm. If you have the jib deeply furled, but still have too much mainsail area, the boat will heel excessively and dangerously. So, you can't just furl the jib and continue carrying too much mainsail and expect the boat to be safe.

The CD rep said what he did because he knows that, realistically, you won't rig the boat for a third reef or a storm tri-sail. When it gets really rough, you'll do what we all do, and that is, take down your sails and start the motor and get to shelter.

If you look at the foam luff, it only extends about a foot. That means it really only helps sail shape when the sail is deeply furled. It's highly likely that, by the time you need that much furl, you'll have already given up on sailing. The exception might be if you sail on an inland lake, where the waves never build much. In big waters, where big waves can knock you about when sailing against the wind, there must be a good balance between the jib and mainsail.

If you're sailing downwind, you might need to take down the mainsail and deeply furl the jib, but, when sailing downwind, aerodynamic sail shape is irrelevant. The wind only strikes the sail from one side, and pushes the boat to leeward.

Thus, I think the question of whether to use a foam luff depends largely on how you will rig and use the boat. Do you intend to sail in big waters in severe conditions? Will you go all the way and rig your mainsail with triple reefs or a storm tri sail. The problem with only rigging the boat part way for storm sailing is that it lures you into thinking you can safely continue sailing, when you really should take the sails down and start the motor.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Joey
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2020 : 09:45:17

Thank you for the feedback. This is very helpful! I feel ready and more confident to make the purchase/investment.

I've been sailing in San Diego Bay and around Point Loma the last three years (but grew up on the saltwater sailing a Sabot in Alamitos Bay in Long Beach, CA in the 70's). Living in Prescott, AZ makes it a bit of a commute (only 6 hours and 15 min. to the slip), but it's my lifeline. I get there about every 6 weeks.

As I'm able, I'm learning more about my C25 and investing more in her. This forum, all the past and current threads and conversations, are very encouraging and insightful.

Thanks for the responses!

Joey Coffman
Still Time '82 C25 SR #3001
San Diego, CA
Prescott, AZ

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2020 : 09:46:41

Steve's is the Word!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/05/2020 09:48:44

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2020 : 13:05:21

Also, check out National Sail Supply and Thesailwarehouse.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Joey
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2020 : 20:54:35

"Your wife's question will be answered shortly, with an exclamation point I predict. It'll be a whole new sailing experience!"

Yes, the hope is reigniting after the "incident" of heeling excessively...we were sailing close hauled in 20 knots on SD Bay on a Saturday in August, dodging jet skis, sailboats, and an occasional warship, while improperly stowed contents below toppled and crashed and "confirmed" that we were about to meet our demise. I simply thought we were enjoying a good date on the water as I demonstrated what our C25 could do...

Thus far, she's been a willing participant, but, if sailing = heeling, she'd rather hang out in the slip.

So the thought of a larger, better powered headsail which has "a considerably lower "center of effort" than the mains'l, meaning less heeling force for the driving force it can create..." is very encouraging. We're looking forward to some moderate, well-balance sailing, and I do realize that has more to do with becoming more proficient as a helmsman than a new sail. But both may instill some confidence and happy sailing.

Joey Coffman
Still Time '82 C25 SR #3001
San Diego, CA
Prescott, AZ

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2020 : 22:42:44

Here's some more hope... In time, if you find yourself out in some doldrums, your wife will begin to associate being vertical with not going. Correspondingly, heeling becomes associated with going! That's a start...

Then there's the question of heeling too much, and the natural fear of "tipping over" (capsizing)... That can be tougher to deal with, but here's an appeal to logic that might, with some experience, overcome emotion (as it did with my Admiral): The more the boat heels, the less the wind can force the sails to heel the boat, and the more all that cast iron (1500 or 1900 lbs depending on your keel) under you is levering the boat back up. So you are essentially guaranteed to reach an equilibrium where you just won't heel further, and by easing the sheets and/or turning up-wind, you'll come back up.

Essentially, a C-25 won't "tip over" unless it's rolled by a very big wave, and those conditions are where C-25's shouldn't be. We've had some green water over the gunwale in 4-5' short chop in 20-30 kt. winds, and once a huge wake come over the bow and all the way over the cabin top into the cockpit, but Passage never flinched! (The latter case was after she went airborne over the first wave and submarined into the second.)

All that said, the 135 roller-furling genny alone can provide a wonderful, relaxing way to "sail to nowhere and back", keeping the boat very much "on her feet" even in some blustery conditions.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/06/2020 22:51:39

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2020 : 07:02:40

From what I've read in this forum over the years, the CDI model FF4 furler, with the ball bearing option, has been a popular choice. The Sail Warehouse sells it for $790, can't tell if that includes the lead block and furling line, which they do offer as a kit for $219. Call them and ask. you should be able to get a complete package with sail from them. I think they still carry Rolly Tasker sails.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Joey
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2020 : 20:03:47

Thank you. I'll check this out!

Joey Coffman
Still Time '82 C25 SR #3001
San Diego, CA
Prescott, AZ

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.