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Weld or screws?

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/22/2019 : 09:55:09

Passage was hit by a fellow dock-mate on a particularly windy day last weekend. I wasn�t aboard but our Marina owner watched the whole thing - from bad judgment to actual accident. Everyone�s opinion was that he had no business taking out his 36 foot sailboat in those conditions.

She notified me shortly afterward that the only visible signs of damage were to my bow pulpit red-green navigation light. The flange was knocked off, the weld had parted.

The yard maintenance manager inspected the exterior for any other damage to the bow and stainless, however the stanchions were fine and the fiberglass was all good. I later invited him aboard to check the interior of the vee berth and we noted all was okay. I also inspected and shook everything.

The marina owner assured me that the offender would be held to account because the marina requires a billing credit card for all eventualities. They secured the flange and light temporarily and it�s all legal.

She asked me whether I wanted the flange welded back on or the pulpit drilled and tapped to receive three machine screws to secure it. I opted for the weld, to get it back to original.

After consulting with the maintenance manager they said that they�ll have to remove the pulpit from the boat to do the welding, they can�t risk doing the job in place. It�ll take a few days she said so the boat will be out of commission around the summer time holidays. She said they could also drill and tap the underside of the tube and make a similar repair without taking the boat down to do it.

I�m in favor of the weld because if done right, it�ll last as long as the boat. The screws may eventually back out or corrode.

Am I making too big a deal about this because maybe subconsciously I�d like to make sure that the guy pays for his mistake? His boat sustained a fair amount of damage to the stanchions where they hit so it�s going to cost him either way.

What would you do?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2019 : 13:30:01

Nope! You should be made whole again.

I'd assume he has insurance (if not, he owns a 36' boat, surely he can afford to pay for it out of pocket if necessary). Do it the right way.

If you don't want to lose sailing time wait until after the holidays.

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2019 : 16:32:29

Definitely want her back as she was although something about welding stainless can be tricky if not done right. Results can be a weld that rusts ( something about the heat changing the molecular composition) and the stainless changing color.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2019 : 18:27:20

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

[i]Everyone�s opinion was that he had no business taking out his 36 foot sailboat in those conditions.

One sailor's good conditions are another sailor's bad conditions. We should presume your dock-mate shouldn't have taken his boat out only because of the bad outcome.

Acceptable conditions depend on the boat, the skipper, and the crew. When I blow past guys in C22s, they like to warn me to reef, but then they don't get to enjoy having a 1 ton keel. If you're bored: https://youtu.be/Wxi-IUnCN_8

quote:

After consulting with the maintenance manager they said that they�ll have to remove the pulpit from the boat to do the welding, they can�t risk doing the job in place. It�ll take a few days she said so the boat will be out of commission around the summer time holidays. She said they could also drill and tap the underside of the tube and make a similar repair without taking the boat down to do it.

Taking off the pulpit seems harder and more time consuming than taking a welder on deck. Put down a heavy blanket under the weld. Run a 240V extension cord for an electric welder, or bring a portable oxy-acetylene outfit.

quote:

I�m in favor of the weld because if done right, it�ll last as long as the boat. The screws may eventually back out or corrode.

I concur.

quote:

Am I making too big a deal about this because maybe subconsciously I�d like to make sure that the guy pays for his mistake? His boat sustained a fair amount of damage to the stanchions where they hit so it�s going to cost him either way.

What would you do?

You're not making a big deal. You love your boat. You put a lot of time and effort into it. You want it right. And presumably the other guy's insured or has plenty of credit. He can pay for it now or next year.

(That being said, it's to each his own as circumstances fit. I bent another sailor's stanchion with my boom during a water cannon fight. He bent the stanchion back and didn't want anything from me. Two years later, a different sailor bent my stern rail and snapped off my flagstaff during a water cannon fight. So I bent the stern rail back into place and resealed the through bolts. The flagstaff remains below decks waiting for me to whittle a new base while drinking in the cockpit.)

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 06/22/2019 18:44:37

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2019 : 18:51:22

Bruce: Have the weld done and everything rewedded -- it is the correct option. I had my stern pulpit welded about ten years ago as it had a crack. The process was remove; weld; reinstall. It has been fine ever since AND i had all new bedding, which can't hurt.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2019 : 20:03:40

Thanks all,
I appreciate everyone�s advice on this.

Seth P

quote:
One sailor's good conditions are another sailor's bad conditions. We should presume your dock-mate shouldn't have taken his boat out only because of the bad outcome.

I agree, conditions are relative to the individual however this particular individual doesn�t still quite have the faculties he once had and this is not the first time... That�s why there�s insurance I reckon.

We�ll see it through.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 06/22/2019 20:05:06

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1889 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2019 : 03:32:08

Bruce,

I'd have the pulpit removed, and welded by a reputable welder experienced with marine stainless steel work. Removal and installation is more likely to reveal whether the rest of the pulpit is distorted from the collision, and allow more thorough inspection for hairline cracks around the rest of the welds.

On my very used Catalina 22, I removed the pulpit to replace the bow light, reinforce the mounting holes in the deck, and rebed the new fasteners. While reinstalling it, I found myself having to apply more force than expected to get one leg to line up with its original holes. Then it suddenly moved easier, as the previously fractured weld at the top broke!

Personally, I wouldn't go out of my way to make the other boat owner's life more miserable. I'd just want my boat repaired to what's acceptable to me. (Structurally sound and not exceptionally ugly, as opposed to cosmetically like new, for example.)

Maybe you could offer to help with removal and installation, if that's practical for you. (It's a two person task because of bolts and nuts through the deck.) Participating in the repair makes you an informal quality witness when it really counts, and shows them you're a hands-on guy who wants it done right.

� Leon

� Leon Sisson

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3312 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2019 : 08:38:11

Something I learned while crewing on that 50' catamaran...when you weld stainless steel it does something to the surface, causing it to lose its "rust-proof" qualities. You have to brush on something called Wichinox which restores its "pacification" (whatever that is).

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2019 : 20:17:30

Derek, I�ll mention the coating to passivate the stainless. I appreciate letting me know about that tidbit of info.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2019 : 05:19:02

I would rather have a bolt on. If it should be hit it again it will be easy to repair. I would still want it done right, just another design.

I want everything on my boat to be designed to be self repairable, en route.

Anyhoo... Glad he didn't tear off the pulpit.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2019 : 06:39:58

Hi Ray,
I was originally thinking along those lines and your right, it�s good to be able to recover with something that�s serviceable in the field. I always have that option if there is a next time. But I think that accident was kind of a fluke - it�ll probably never happen again to Passage. But never say never!
I still have the option because the holes are drilled in the mounting flange. It�s temporarily being held in place using wire ties. Not ideal, but legal.
I did receive the insurance check to cover the work. Surprising how much stuff costs. Now we�re just waiting to schedule the welder. This guy has a waiting list like a heart surgeon!
In a few weeks the yard will remove the pulpit, bring it to the welding shop and reinstall afterwards. I�m hopeful they�ll do most of the work starting on a Monday so I�ll have it back online before a Friday. Of course they�ll probably start on a Thursday...
It�s always something...

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

SKS
Navigator

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161 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2019 : 20:33:49

Looks like I'm getting in late to this party, but I'd avoid welding the stainless and getting a bolt on unit.
Here's a nice one:

https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-380390/electrical/navigation-lights/navigation-light-bracket-ss-clamp-on/

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2019 : 07:24:23

Hi Steve,
That seems like a great solution for mounting the bow red/green navigation light to the bow pulpit. It looks a lot like the headlight mount for my bicycle.

The current flange bracket that mounts the light to the pulpit was originally welded in place.

It�s a purpose-made stainless steel flange that�s a flat piece of stock with a 90� bend in it. The flange in the CD article looks very similar to mine.

The light fixture is mounted to the front face while the top face is mounted to the underside of the bow pulpit. That�s the weld that was snapped off by the other boat.

On that face there are also three holes in a triangular pattern that would match the 1� SS tubing that the pulpit is made out of.

All the boatyard had to do was drill and tap corresponding threaded holes in the SS tube to mount it with screws.

Now the yard has scheduled the repair, the welding contractor has been scheduled (the guy has a waiting list) and the other guy�s insurance has made the payment to me.

I realize welding stainless steel is tricky, but the guy comes highly recommended. What�ll probably happen is the boatyard will take the bow pulpit off, drive it to the welding shop, get it done, put it back and send the bill.

Should be good as new. Fingers crossed!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 07/14/2019 08:25:47

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2019 : 16:48:40

Over a month has passed since the accident occurred and I�m happy to report that Passage has been fully restored to its previous condition. The boatyard basically did everything to make me whole. They held the owner of the colliding boat accountable, they let me know what happened when it happened, they made sure their insurance company made good based on the boatyards estimate of the repair, and they followed through with the repair.
They removed the bow pulpit, brought it to the welder, got it welded then got the deep scratches polished and smoothed, replaced the pulpit then re-installed the cables.
It�s as if nothing ever happened and it works perfectly.
It�s rare that you receive such great service from your boatyard.
I�d like to give a shoutout the MILFORD BOATWORKS of Milford CT and their proprietor Nancy.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2019 : 07:02:45

You�re not going to believe this. I still don�t. I stopped in at the dock last week and there�s a note in my crib boards.
�Dear Captain of Passage. I�m really sorry but for such and such reason I crashed into your bow when the wind piped up. I�ll be happy to pay you for repairs. Again, very sorry�
DAMN!!!
So I took a look and the weld held up perfectly! The flange was a little bent and the navigation light was smashed. I alerted the Marina owner and within a few days they got it fixed up, good as new.
I put in for a transfer to another slip for next year. Seems like all the 35+ foot sailboats are aiming for my bow.
One guy suggested I put a fender up. I told him I�m going to put up a bullseye!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2019 : 07:44:04

There you go... A fender hanging on the pulpit to stop a 35' sailboat under way. Nice to have expert advice handy!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2019 : 21:06:15

Well, if you are in need of a motor upgrade maybe consider turning the boat around in the slip. :)

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2019 : 08:29:53

<< So I took a look and the weld held up perfectly! >>

Well there is something to be said for a repair that does not need to be repaired when it gets hit!

Cheers to Stainless Steel Welding

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2019 : 17:15:21

quote:
Originally posted by GaryB

maybe consider turning the boat around

Why hadn�t I thought of that? Maybe next year!

The original repair cost a couple of boat bucks. Nice downpayment on a new engine for sure ...

And Ray, we were a little worried about rebending the SS, but managed to keep the weld stationary while flattening the flange out enough to fix the light fixture plumb and square.

Cheers for Stainless Steel indeed.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 10/23/2019 17:16:35

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