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HappyNow
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/23/2019 : 13:35:57

I have a Catalina 250 1998 wing keel that I love. I sail on Lake Tahoe, frequently singlehand, and the wind is frequently over 20 knots with gusts higher, which is typical high elevation lake sailing. I've become used to sailing with just a reefed main or even more frequently just the jib on roller furling to make handling easier and less extreme heeling or rounding up. I'm thinking of moving to a Catalina 27 or even a 30 with their heavier keels. I'd be going from a 1998 to an older boat, 70s or early 80s. Pros and cons, advice? Some of the 27s have outboards, and I wouldn't mind sticking with that for ease of maintenance and not worrying about stuffing box. Your thoughts please?

Michael Levin
Sailin' on Sunshine
C250 #402 WK
Lake Tahoe

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2019 : 21:33:46

I was in love with a classic, full-keeled, outboard powered boat by Cape Dory, the CD-26, designed by Carl Alberg, the designer for most of the Cape Dory fleet. We bought the C-25 for some reasons having to do with the dock where we would keep her. This Cape Dory's outboard is in a lazarette under an aft deck. It was somewhat worrisome that in salt water it didn't tilt out of the water when not in use, but on Tahoe...

Alberg designs, from the 18' Typhoon up to his big cutter rigs, are legendary for seakindliness, and with their custom bronze hardware and fully teak interiors, very easy on the eyes! They aren't that easy to find, but given your stated interests, one might be worth pursuing. (It would feel VERY different to you out there!)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/23/2019 21:42:36

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2019 : 22:18:16

I really can't help you with your decision. All I can say, is don't watch this video........ Nothing will ever be good enough again

:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH68iz08iqo

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2019 : 04:45:05

Going to the 27 is probably not going to be that much a difference in what is gained as far as creature comforts but I believe the overall weight of the boat does go up but also with increased sail area. The 30 footer will be a much more significant weight increase and even though sail area does go up as well, that would more likely give you more stability which seems to e what you want. The 30 footer will also provide a real difference in creature comforts compared to your 25 footer or the 27 foot. The thing is you have to be prepared for what may be a significant increase in maintenance costs. Everything is proportionately larger and so starting with dock fees, the cost goes up. Also, if going with an older vintage boat compared to your Cat 25, depending on how the new purchased boat was previously maintained, costs could go p significantly. A survey becomes all the more important to help determine any hidden issues that will need to be addressed in the near future and also any high cost issues that will need to be maintained. High on the list would be the condition of the hull and keel. Then there is the age/condition of the stays, sails and outboard or inboard.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2019 : 04:47:17

Happy, Happy, Happy..... thump your chest and crack open a cold one.... It's not Gusty, it's just Sailing Weather

Im having a similar problem. Somebody talking me into a Cape Dory 36 in my future years, for offshore sailing. I started out with a Southcoast 22 and then we had a Catalina 30. One of my friends had a Catalina 27 and I looked at it a few times.

We have pretty Gusty winds as the fronts blow through in the spring. Small Tornados... and Yep it gets pretty nervey.

I still prefer the Catalina 25 rather than the larger boats. I like the quick access to below and the way the "below" still feels like the "above". With the larger boats it feels like you are going down a floor into a building and then you are below and kinda out of everything.

I like the lower weight boat, I like the behavior of the boat when the winds are a bit less gusty other times of year. I also like ( finally after years ) getting the boat balanced and converting that heel into forward motion. I've found giving the main excessive twist by tightening the topping lift and letting out the mainsheet calms the boat a lot. I've bought heaver sails with a good luff line. Tighten that luff line on the jib to stop that flapping...

I'm also looking at other sails for the springtime... I've bought a used mylar mainsail from a Catalina 22 I'm looking at hanging. Seeing how that works. Getting my reefing on the main i'm using right now worked out better.

Nothing wrong with a bigger boat and I'm sure I'm going that way with time, but right now I'm having fun adapting my boat to the standing conditions. Last month I went out with a bigger jib than I intended and boy did we have fun... " just throw all that stuff down in the middle"

The Catalina 30 felt like a Big boat to me, ( and yes it was sweet ) and the Cape Dory 36 feels intimidating right now. But both boats felt difficult in difficult conditions, especially gusty conditions. The bigger sail area was even more unnerving with changing gusty winds.

Ahhh, feel that boat rock and the wind slammed into the sail and and shock that rig.

I expect the most important aspect is the area you are sailing in, I know in my experience every location was quite different so your local sailors might be the best council, combined with the experiences of so many you can hear from on our forum.

I'm sure someone on the lake will sell you a boat that you can try out and let us know how it compares to a Catalina 25 on Lake Tahoe.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2019 : 07:11:06

Back from the Cape Dory to the Catalinas... To me, the C-30 would not be "fun" for single-handing, from hoisting sails to tacking the jib to dousing sails to maneuvering around a dock, I probably would stay at the dock unless I had another set of hands on board. Everything about it feels triple the size of the C-250 (including the ballast at about 3-1/2 times).

The C-27 feels closer to the "scale" of the C-250, with about 2-1/2 times the ballast and 1-1/2 times the displacement. For your conditions, I'd stay away from the tall rig version. Some were made for an outboard mounted in a cut-out in the transom, while most (I think) were made with inboards--gasoline in the early years, shifting to diesel later. The inboard would be nice on Tahoe, but the maintenance cost is on another level. (Yup, the older stuffing boxes and cooling systems can be bothersome.) And going back to the '70s and '80s, you should expect some significant replacements and repairs to be waiting for you all over the boat. A survey is just about critical.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2019 : 09:06:49

I retired and moved up to a 35' 13,000 lb boat with diesel inboard and put it on the Chesapeake Bay, where I had no friends or acquaintances to help me sail it, so I had no choice but to learn how to sail it and dock it singlehanded. It was either learn or sit in the slip. You can take a class, of course, or you can ask for help on the docks, or crew on a race boat, or read a book, but you can learn the needed skills. Everyone does. Once you learn how to maneuver an inboard boat under power, those techniques that you use work the same for big boats as well as small boats. I showed a friend how to back his 43' boat into his slip, never having been at it's helm before, and taught another friend how to back his 45' boat in. Maneuvering a big inboard boat is the same as maneuvering a smaller inboard boat, only easier, because the wind doesn't affect a big boat as much.

Physically, sailing a bigger boat isn't as difficult as it might seem. A roller furling jib makes it easy to sail. I have a friend in his 80s who never raises the mainsail on his 38' boat when he singlehands it. He unfurls the genoa and sails a beam reach across the Bay and back.

My biggest physical challenge as I age is hoisting the anchor, but that's why God made electric windlasses.

Don't be intimidated by the thought of handling a bigger boat. Just understand that there's a learning process that goes along with it

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2019 : 14:41:32

I think we all at one time or another go through a similar decision tree. Each person's situation is different. A few years ago when my kids were all local and eager to sail, moving up to a Cape Dory 36 or other much larger boat would have made sense. A crew was available and their was a need for space for all. Now that I am sailing most of the time solo, I look at boat size and amenities differently. I now value a boat I can single hand -- which in my definition means up to a "small" 30 footer vs. a "large" 30 footer. As an example, the C-30 and Pearson 303 are "large" 30 foot boats while the Pearson 30 and Tartan 30 are "small" 30 foot boats. Amenities for me include having an inboard (preferably diesel) auxiliary, etc. So when I look at the next boat the boats I keep looking at include the C-27; P-30; S2 8.5 & 9.1; Sabre 28; Tartan 28 & 30, etc. Then there is condition, and then again, location. I will say that I have seen some nice C&C and even (can't believe I am saying this) Beneteau's as well. Think about what you like about your current boat and what you really wish your current boat had that it doesn't, and then start poking around the used market and see what grabs you. The perfect boat is often a compromise, however if you are going to Break Out Another Thousand, do it with passion!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2019 : 18:24:39

In the past few years, I�ve been to a number of boat shows: New England, Newport, New York.

Catalina has been showing it�s 275. IMHO this boat just confuses me. It�s not big and beefy enough to give me the feeling I�m moving up. And the deck layout, while ample, has the main sheet traveller right amidships. A major trip hazard. The cabin doesn�t offer the volume that you get in other 27s and 28s. So what�s the point?

My fave following the 25 footer is the Catalina 309. A 32 footer that offers an ample cockpit, a well laid out salon and plenty of quarterberth area. It had only a short production run but for a 30plus, she was comfortable without being a behemoth. Similar to the 320 she had that special Catalina flair and the feeling of luxury in a manageable package. Just my 2cents.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 04/24/2019 18:33:16

HappyNow
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2019 : 19:47:56

Wow, great advice from all, as always. Thank you. I spent the day looking online at other boats and got a geography lesson. The Pearsons, Cape Dorys, etc. are mainly East coast and Great Lakes boats,with some on the south coast as well. Very few to none on the West coast. Nice boats and way more ballast and keel than my 250 so would definitely handle the gusts. Cost of transport is about $ 3.50 per mile so shipping from the East coast would come close to the cost of those boats. I could afford it from the west coast for a few hundred miles. I agree that the Catalina 30 is nice and would work, but more boat than I need for mostly day sailing and some overnights, and since I'm on a buoy without Shore power, I don't really need to deal with refrigeration etc. Lots of Cat 30s for sale on the west coast. So I'm thinking of a Catalina 27 later model after the traveler was moved to the cabin top. Or possibly a 270 which they started making about 1992. There's not a lot of them but some, and some have trailers so transport and storage would be easier. I think with the larger displacement and ballast it should handle a lot better in the gusts. I agree the 275 is a strange boat, not really racer or cruiser, not sure why you'd buy one and of course they are more expensive. Have any of you sailed a 1980s 27 or 1990s 270?

Michael Levin
Sailin' on Sunshine
C250 #402 WK
Lake Tahoe

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2019 : 06:57:06

The C-27 I sailed was mid-70s as I recall, and had a tiller and an Atomic 4 gas inboard. It seems they improved a lot (as did the C-25), but I don't know the years. The C-270 is wider, lighter, with less ballast and maybe a little more sail than the C-27--it's very much like a scaled-up C-250. I liked the C-28 better--it's like a scaled-down C-30--considerably heavier than the C-270, with nicer layout below for my taste, with nicer side-decks.

I don't dispute that you can learn to single-hand a bigger boat, and in inboard is an inboard... But for day-sailing enjoyment, when you're not that interested in living space for real cruising (as it seems is your case), I think there's a sweet spot between stability and the fun-factor that on Lake Tahoe might be below 30'. To me, the "size" of sailboats in this range doubles with every 3' of length. (Displacements tend to bear that out.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/25/2019 07:00:41

HappyNow
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2019 : 15:22:52

Thanks Dave. I think you fully understand what I'm looking at. The 250 displaces 4200pounds, the 270 6400 pounds, and the 28 displaces 8300 pounds, a huge difference for just going up two or three feet. Now comes the looking and waiting for the right boat. I think I'd be happy with either a 270 or 28 and sticking with Catalina if possible since I like the 250 and already know a lot about Catalina systems which probably share some similarities on the slightly larger boats.

Michael Levin
Sailin' on Sunshine
C250 #402 WK
Lake Tahoe

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2019 : 16:49:36

S2 9.1 is a racer, look at the 9.2
A cat 25 should be just coming into its own in 20-25 knot winds... reef/jib and hold on tight! It should handle the heavier air better than most. But then I am crazy, went to the BVIs, took out a Bene 35.1 that was literally 2 or 3 months old, and average winds were 27 knots the 11 days we were there. I was complaining the boat "spun out" to easy... dual rudders and it couldn't hold a track even broad reach (probably due to stubby wing keel). Spent to much time with a double reef and a reefed headsail. Heck of a lot of fun though.

C&C 32 Smith Mountain Lake Virginia

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2019 : 07:59:14

Wouldn't you know it ... went out Friday with 30mph sustained winds, gusting to 45... Fetch had 3 foot waves. roughest I've ever been out on Lake Lanier.

Downwind crossing only.... talk about Ye Haw....

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2019 : 16:02:44

I had an opportunity to buy a C25 or a C27. I passed on the C27 in favor of the C25 because I was concerned that I couldn't handle the C27 on my own.
What a moron. Had I bought the C27, I'd be done now.
Instead, I'm thinking of moving up to a C30. ]As someone said, once you learn the skills to handle an inboard, they translate to any size boat, so I'm pretty sure I can sail the C30 quite well.
The comforts of the C30 make it pretty acceptable to sail, as well as just hang out on the dock.

Just my opiion. I could be wrong. I'll know for sure if I buy the C30.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2019 : 07:28:59

quote:
Originally posted by SKS

I had an opportunity to buy a C25 or a C27... What a moron. Had I bought the C27, I'd be done now.

Hah! Ya, right!

quote:
Instead, I'm thinking of moving up to a C30. ]

See?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2019 : 18:46:06

You can get C-30's for a song as their are so many and especially in the New England waters. It's a to of boat and a big step up from the C-25. Just make sure you look hard and long and get a survey. Have seen excellent boats with A-4's for @$6k with diesel for @$8k and Mk II for @$11k Used sailboats maybe the best bargain out there, And, while BOAT means Break Out Another Thousand -- when shopping prudently, they are still a relative bargain!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2019 : 16:42:55

I'll stick with my C 25 for at least the rest of this season. I went to the dentist a couple of days ago. It seems he's looking to put a new family room on his house and he needs me to make a contribution.
3 implants cost about half as much as a C30. Oy !!!!!

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
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