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Replace Internal Halyards

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ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/25/2018 : 15:10:39

First, I'm doing the unthinkable of replacing the rope tail of my wire/rope halyard. Already purchased the line for the halyard, so no going back. Went today to replace, and cannot figure out how to get to the point where the wire and rope meet. Before heading to the boat, I thought the rope portion would come out the head of the mast and would be easily accessible to replace (wrong). End of the wire appears to be too large to come through the masthead. Tried to pull the halyard the other way to access from the bottom of the mast (mast is currently down as boat is on the trailer). Where the rope and wire meets is not accessible (or even visible) from the bottom of the mast. Bottom line, I don't think I can replace the rope portion of the halyard. Any advice on how to replace the rope poriton? It appears the only option may be to take off the masthead, which I really don't want to do.

Worst case, I turn my nice new halyards into nice new genoa sheets and go all rope/new sheaves next season.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2018 : 11:02:48

Hello Ryank,

My boat has all rope internal halyards so I have no experience with your setup. I don't know how the rope and wire are attached to each other but always assumed it was by a splice of some kind. I would look into that first. If a previous owner has replaced the rope end before, it may be possible that he joined them in a different way thereby creating the obstruction that is not allowing the joint to pass thru the mast head. Sense the mast is down, I don't understand your reluctance to removing the mast head. And if it were me, I believe I would just replace the entire halyard and that way the joint would be correctly done. I am pretty sure you can get it from CD and if not, WM could make it for you. I don't know which is better between all rope vs. rope/wire halyards. But logic tells me that replacing all rope would be a straight forward operation that could easily be done even with the mast up. As long as you haven't (lost) the original halyard. Is there some reason you want to stay with wire/rope..? Anyway, best of luck.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2018 : 06:30:34

Are you familiar with the technique of spicing wire to double-braid rope? My halyards were external, the rope was aging, and the wire was a PITA, so I changed to all-rope (with new mast-head sheaves).

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2018 : 06:09:01

The only reason I had wanted to stay with the original wire/rope set-up was because I thought it would be an easier task to complete and I wouldn't have to go through the process of replacing sheaves. However, I didn't know this was a splice, which I am not going to be able to do and do not have a preference for half wire half rope versus all rope. My halyards are not in that desperate need of replacing, so I may put this on the next year task list.

Does the masthead have to be modified to fit an all rope halyard?

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2018 : 06:36:41

Hi again,

It is my understanding that it is a simple matter of changing out the sheaves. One on the forward side, one aft. I don't recall our boats being setup with double sheaves for and aft. its been a while sense my mast was down. best of luck.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2018 : 07:47:24

Bladeswell, That would be an easy fix. Thanks for the help.

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2018 : 08:33:07

I'm not sure I understand the problem, but think one or two messenger lines might help you. You can attach a messenger line to the existing halyard and use the halyard to pull the messenger line through the mast. Then you can use the messenger line to pull the new rope halyard to the masthead, where you can attach it to the wire halyard. Then you can pull them down through the mast.

I use 1/4" nylon line as a messenger line. I attach it the halyard by butting it to the end of the halyard, sewing it together with 4-5 stitches, and then wrapping the joint with tape, to add a little strength and help it run smoothly over the sheaves.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2018 : 08:38:22

quote:
It is my understanding that it is a simple matter of changing out the sheaves. One on the forward side, one aft

quote:
Does the masthead have to be modified to fit an all rope halyard?

Yep, just pull the pins and remove the old sheaves and plates then put in the sheaves shown below. They are wide so as to fill the entire width.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/171_407/masthead-sheave-for-internal-rope-halyards-c-25-and-c-250.cfm

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/02/2018 08:41:38

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2018 : 22:13:55

When I started overhauling my 1980 it had external halyards. The truck had two sheaves fwd. and two aft; the halyards went up the mast, across the truck and down the other side of the mast. There was a divider between the port and stbd. members of each pair of sheaves. By bringing the lines down inside the mast it meant that four lines could go up outside the mast and down the inside. I was able to use 5/16 rope over the sheaves (I have a vague recollection that I may have cut a new divider plate out of thinner stock to allow the replacement sheaves

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2018 : 08:53:41

Hey Dave how are you? I currently have all external halyards but wire to rope. I did get my wires switched. by accident I replaced all 4 sheaves with ball bearing sheaves. When you go to all rope external what do I need to know. How long do they have to be for cockpit deploy. I also read that you on use one of the Sheaves for each side. How does that work? Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Are you familiar with the technique of spicing wire to double-braid rope? My halyards were external, the rope was aging, and the wire was a PITA, so I changed to all-rope (with new mast-head sheaves).

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2018 : 09:00:02

do people go to internal and create room for 4 lines/? I really dont want to go to internal why would I?

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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kwalsh
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2018 : 15:57:54

Hi John,
This is Kevin Walsh, your neighbor in LEH, NJ. We just completed re-rigging, standing and running, and purchased all our materials from Catalina Direct. We simply think it is more convenient as they know the length required for the halyards of each rig and if running back to the CP. You don't get a choice of brands or color schemes, but like Henry Ford once said, 'you can get any color you want so long as it is black.' For us it is about convenience and knowledge. We replaced external wire to rope halyards with all rope. The wire is spliced into the rope and it looks interesting. Not sure of particular sizes, etc., but our external halyards were much larger or heavier than what it was replaced with. Sheaves: our guidance was to replace the main halyard sheaves with upgraded ball bearing style and the alternate halyard with new plastic sheaves. The cost difference is not much, but if checking expenses and the alternate is not used often than why not save a few dollars. My invoices are in the detached garage and it is raining heavily right now. Anyway, place the new ball bearing sheaves in line so as the main halyard travels up one side of the mast and down the other the halyard traverses the same type sheaves. Place the plastic sheaves in line next to the ball bearing sheaves to carry the alt halyard using the same technique. We elected to keep our halyards external as we had too many items on the To-Do List for this season. Bringing them internal will protect more of the line from weather and UV rays, etc. We exchanged ours while the mast was down for winter and exchanged all the standing rigging the same time. Again, CD has all prepared for either sized rig. Ours is a TR. I hope this is helpful.

Kevin Walsh
Segelboot
1984 C25, TR/SK
Sail No. 4433

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2018 : 21:32:29

It is helpful. I have already changed my sheaves. So only need to change the line. I am not really keen on 300 dollars when I only need the line. You mention a wire spliced into the rope? I have a wire today tied to the rope. I thought in switching you get rid of the wire.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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kwalsh
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2018 : 05:32:14

Hi John,
Sorry for any confusion. Wire to rope is what we had and replaced with all line halyards. I was trying to convey how interesting the former halyards look with the wire spliced into the rope.

Kevin Walsh
Segelboot
1984 C25, TR/SK
Sail No. 4433

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2018 : 13:28:01

FWIW, when I replaced my wire-rope halyards with all-rope on my 1985 about 15+ years ago, the mast-head sheaves were pretty much trashed from UV (and probably at least partially from the wire). That made two reasons for replacing them. In your case, I'm guessing it's time.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2018 : 19:51:30

So I bought the ball bearing sheaves from catalina. I have an external halyard set up with 4 sheaves. Can I just run the line over these sheaves. What size line is too big for the sheaves from catalina direct.

Item No. Item Qty Unit Price Ext. Price
H1883 Masthead Sheave Ball Bearing C-25, C-27, C-28; Outhaul C-28, C-30, C-34, C-36

When I run the lines over the sheaves do they just go over both sheaves

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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ryank020
1st Mate

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53 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2019 : 17:40:07

Re-visiting this post over a year later. Over the winter, I bought the appropriate length of line for all rope halyards and the new sheaves from CD. Today, went to replace and found the issue. First, I found four sheaves at the top with the divider plate. Took out the sheaves and plate. After I removed, I was able to identify that the wire and rope are in-fact attached by a splice. The issue is there is a piece of metal in the masthead that essentially "caps" the mast with a small hole (I think 1/4 inch) where the wire portion of the halyard goes through. The 3/8 inch rope will not fit through this hole, hence the jam. Is the fix to just make two new larger holes in the masthead to get the rope portion to go through (thinking 1/2").The setup at top seems weird (i.e. four wire sheaves) when there are only two halyards. Maybe Catalina used the same mastheads for all halyard variations?

Also, the aft sheave was SHOT, totally disintegrated on one side. Check your sheaves if you haven't!

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2019 : 19:55:31

To add a wee bit more noise and confusion to this discussion, if you have a jib furler please take note of the jib sheet running over the top of the sheaves and then running under the forward restraining block just below the masthead. This block prevents the jib halyard from wrapping around the furler.

Here is an example of this restraining block from Catalina Direct. restrainer

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 04/17/2019 20:09:07

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