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HELP! C25 Handicap Race Rating Number

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Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/16/2018 : 20:42:22

Need west coast inland lake racing handicap number for fixed keel standard rig 110 jib Catalina 25. Race starts at 9:30 a.m. Sat. and RC has not assigned us a number.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Sailynn
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178 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2018 : 20:57:43

I'm willing to go with 228 which is what ussailing shows. any experience comments from racer appreciated.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2018 : 22:10:19

Lynn,

Here's what I found, but you probably have the same information.
I only have the base rates, but that assumes a 150-Jib.
What you want is an "As Sailed" certificate for the 110-Jib.
That would need someone who has already gone through the process and copy theirs.
I'm sorry I'm not much help.

PHRF
Northern California website
http://yra.org/northern-california-phrf/ncphrf-ratings

Northern California - Base Rates
http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_baserates.pdf

US Sailing National Ratings
http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/2016%20PHRF%20Book%20Intro%20w%20boat%20tables%20and%20NRR.docx

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 02/19/2018 18:55:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2018 : 04:41:28

The use of the PHRF handicap rating system isn't universal. Inland lakes especially can choose any rating system that they believe will provide the fairest results. The club at the Indiana Lake where I used to race used the Portsmouth handicap Rating System. So, the first question is what rating system is your lake using?

If it's PHRF, there's one rating for boats carrying a 155% genoa. You're allowed to use any size sail up to 155%, but you don't get a different rating for a smaller sail.

Under the Portsmouth system, my lake gave different ratings for 155% genoas and 110% jibs.

Regardless of the rating system they're using at your lake, they should be able to find a rating for your boat. Phrf ratings used by the different PHRF fleets around the country are available online.

My suggestion: Hit the line on time at full speed, sail your best, have fun, don't violate the rules and accept the results. At this late stage, there isn't time to question whatever rating they use.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Sailynn
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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2018 : 07:35:14

im going to ask for redress as we will be sailing phrf mixed class and the ussailing rate is based on 155 genoa.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2018 : 10:57:02

Corresponding to Steve's comment, I haven't heard of a PHRF rating that varied by headsail size. I think the largest "standard" sail, typically based on class rules, is assumed, and smaller ones are at the skipper's discretion (as on high-wind days). The C-25 class rule is max 155.

The SR isn't exactly a racing machine (the main is kinda small), but if you're serious about racing, a 155 might belong on your list for Santa.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2018 : 09:45:12

On Canyon Lake the PHRF of the Alamo rarting would be 228, assuming a 155% genoa. If he only owned a 110 jib we would probably add another 12 secs and give him a 140 rating.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2018 : 19:05:37

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

If it's PHRF, there's one rating for boats carrying a 155% genoa. You're allowed to use any size sail up to 155%, but you don't get a different rating for a smaller sail.

The Northern California PHRF allows for adjustments to the base rate in many categories, including headsails.
Link: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_rules_and_guidelines.pdf

VIII. ADJUSTMENTS TO BASE RATINGS
STANDARD BASE RATINGS ARE GIVEN BASED ON THE ASSUMPTIONS IN SECTION VI. DEVIATIONS ARE
CREDITED OR PENALIZED AS FOLLOWS:

B. JIBS
Largest Headsail LP of 125% of J or less: +3 seconds
Largest Headsail LP of greater than 155% of J but less than 170%of J: -3 seconds
Largest Headsail LP of 170% of J or greater: -6 seconds

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 02/19/2018 19:07:54

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2018 : 19:09:38

Lynn,

Please let us know how your race turned out.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2018 : 21:11:18

I'll ask what my old sail club used. We had a couple of C25s that raced in the non-spinnaker division. Might help for next time.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 : 09:48:33

Thank you to all who replied. I'm a ex-certified US Sailing Club Race Officer, so I went with their So. CA rating of 228. We were racing at Lake Pleasant, AZ where they use So. CA ratings. The PRO approached me at the skippers meeting and told me she was giving me a 3 point adjustment for our 110 sail as all the other handicapped boats in our fleet were sailing with max class sails. I was happy with that and hit the line with my friends #360 C25 on time every race, but handicapped out last against almost every boat even though we finished ahead of some on six races in the regatta. The two ladies that race with me in AZ on a Santana 20 were surprised how slow a C25 races, and with light winds we even timed out once, started the motor and headed back to the finish line to do it again. We had fun, the weather was great, dinner was fantastic and the experience settled our debate about racing a C25. Now back to my C25 wing keel #5696 for some comfortable and slow cruising.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Edited by - Sailynn on 02/20/2018 09:50:28

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 : 11:19:27

Sorry to hear... That's quite in contrast with some other members' experiences--for example Chuck Shaw (hull #1) and Derek Crawford (no longer sailing), both of whom sailed tall rigs (lower handicaps) and humiliated a lot of "faster" boats. Several standard rig owners have reported less gratifying results at the finish line, but have at least corrected over some of the competition. (Past commodore Jim Baumgart, for example, did some longer ocean races on his SR where he missed the post-race cocktail party altogether. After a few years, he changed boats.)

My takeaway from others' reports and my ownership (not racing it) is that the SR, especially with a 110 jib, is under-canvased for racing, especially in lighter air. That's because with its mast-head rig, it is primarily a headsail-driven boat. (With a 130 and a good breeze, mine sailed almost as well with the main furled as with it up.) With a good quality main, at least a 135 genoa, a clean bottom, and stronger winds, it should be capable of correcting into the fleet. But it's very forgiving and reasonably performing for daysailing and cruising, and a good choice for bigger water and stronger prevailing winds. The TR is the racer's choice, especially for being competitive in lighter air.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/20/2018 11:20:54

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 : 12:47:43

i have a 155 cruising sail but the boat we raced was not rigged to use it. the boat bottom and rudder were pretty dirty too, and there were light winds. most races were light winds except one where we did better. IMHO, to race a C25 you have to have a 155 to be competitive, and have winds over 7.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2018 : 09:56:30

Lynn, IMHO you need not only a 155 but also a tall rig. The PHRF differential between tall & short is very inadequate to compensate. The TR is also very competitive in light air (as long as the boat has a clean bottom and a whisker pole).
When I raced with Alice Patten in the Columbia River Nationals, we had 6 semi-drifters, one abandoned for no wind, and one about 5-7 knots. We won 6 out of 7 races and always beat the spinnaker boats with flying a 155.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2018 : 19:55:22

Confetti is a tall rig with 155 and symmetric spinnakers. We usually do quite well, especially in lighter air. We used to sail at 222 as I recall under the Galveston Bay PHRF. IMHO, a 155, an easily used whisker pole, a clean bottom, and not trimming in too tight are the is the most important factors in getting a Cat 25 to sail fast.

Have fun!!!!

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Edited by - cshaw on 02/21/2018 19:57:11

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