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Changing topping lift

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vdotmatrix
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139 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/23/2017 : 05:54:18

Has anyone done this without a rigging crane?
Can i do this in a boson chair?
How is the topping lift attached at the top?

Edited by - vdotmatrix on 12/23/2017 05:54:49

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/24/2017 : 06:39:58

i could only tell you how mine was, yours is probably different. the PO originally just had a rope line tied to the aft most pin in the masthead and then tied to the boom through a tang. when i changed out my rigging last year i had the yard put a coated wire there instead with a block at the end.

you probably could do it in a boson chair, but i'd be very worried about the rig tipping forward with your weight up there.

another think to note was the pins in my masthead were frozen through galvanic corrosion, so you'll likely have to bang them out. probably also not the best thing to do on an unsupported rig

i doubt you need a "crane", even just a man lift will work just fine, shouldn't take more than an hour.

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2017 : 08:04:49

Use our search function looking for the word "bosun" and you'll see many threads on going aloft vs. dropping the mast. Several folks here have gone up--many advise to drop the mast--one reason could be the corrosion mentioned here. I don't see why the rig would be "unsupported"--the topping lift doesn't support it--that's the backstay's job. (I guess you could say the topping lift and mainsheet could work together if the backstay fails, but...)

Also, if you search for "topping" you'll get some other discussions on making it adjustable--a useful feature. I used a mini-fiddle-block with an integral jam cleat.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

TakeFive
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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2017 : 14:29:32

There is already tackle inside the boom for an adjustable topping lift. Just run it from the top of the mast to end with a small bowline know a couple feet above the boom, and connect shackle to that with a lead that goes down to the end boom, around the blocks in the boom and out the side to the clam cleat.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2017 : 09:27:02

Some folks may have a SS wire cable at a fixed length. On my 16 foot day sailer I attached a block to the mast top using a 3/8" rope line for a topping lift and made it adjustable using a mast cleat.

On Passage the topping lift is a 7/16" or 1/2" line that's spliced to an eye at the top. The eye is connected to a pin passing through the mast top fixture. It's a very sturdy setup and I would not be surprised if folks use the boom as a "crane" to lift MOBs out of the water from time to time.

The bottom end of the line is connected to a fiddle block as Dave "Stinkpotter" mentioned. This allows the boom to be lowered or raised out of the cockpit while the sail is down, and released while the sail is up.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 10:13:16

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...The bottom end of the line is connected to a fiddle block... This allows the boom to be lowered or raised out of the cockpit while the sail is down, and released while the sail is up.

Bruce, I used a stopper-knot positioned to catch on the jam cleat when the halyard was released and go slack at full hoist. (Pardon the hijack and the "C-25 talk."

)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/26/2017 10:17:15

vdotmatrix
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139 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2018 : 08:12:42

We finally have decent weather to work outside. The previous owner made a pigtail for the back stay to support the boom. I wondered why this necessary. Then the other day when securing the boom with main, the force pulled the topping lift out of the pinch cleat on the boom and missed my fat head by inches. So insead of replacing this wornout thing or putting in a small cleat, she just fashioned a pigtail.....how lame....

Anyway, any suggestions on diameter , length or material to use as a replacement? 2003 C250, std mast....i am at west marine right now....is there an easy way to do this?

vdotmatrix
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139 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2018 : 08:31:09

Catalina said to replace the topping lift with 5/16 braided dacron. The marina just replace the topping lift on the other C250 wit 3/16" braided nylon or polyester........After looking at it and comparing i think it is 5/16 tensioned it looks like 3/16".

Anyway I am going heat fuse the new line to the old line and just gently run it throgh the boom, around the sheave at gooseneck, then exit out the aft , where I will pull the excess line through.....NEXT my ass goes up in the bosons chair.

My question...what would be the knot of choice up there on the same clevis pin the backstay lives on?

double bowline? Halyard hitch? round turn with 2 half hitches.

quote:
Originally posted by vdotmatrix

We finally have decent weather to work outside. The previous owner made a pigtail for the back stay to support the boom. I wondered why this necessary. Then the other day when securing the boom with main, the force pulled the topping lift out of the pinch cleat on the boom and missed my fat head by inches. So insead of replacing this wornout thing or putting in a small cleat, she just fashioned a pigtail.....how lame....

Anyway, any suggestions on diameter , length or material to use as a replacement? 2003 C250, std mast....i am at west marine right now....is there an easy way to do this?

Edited by - vdotmatrix on 05/04/2018 04:18:26

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2018 : 04:02:49

quote:
Originally posted by vdotmatrix

Catalina said to replace the topping lift with 5/16 braided dacron. The marina just replace the topping lift on the other C250 wit 3/16" braided nylon or polyester........

try 7/64 amsteel. slippery and strong as heck. stronger in fact than the equivalent size wire rope. hard to grip, so i put a plastic ball from a bungee on the end.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/04/2018 : 04:57:44

quote:
Originally posted by dasreboot

quote:
Originally posted by vdotmatrix

Catalina said to replace the topping lift with 5/16 braided dacron. The marina just replace the topping lift on the other C250 wit 3/16" braided nylon or polyester........

try 7/64 amsteel. slippery and strong as heck. stronger in fact than the equivalent size wire rope. hard to grip, so i put a plastic ball from a bungee on the end.

Wouldn't this require replacing both the jam cleat and cam cleat because the line is too small to grip? Sometimes it makes sense to stick to the specs.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Voyager
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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2018 : 06:55:00

Again, the boom and topping lift together make a solid crane-like structure that can carry some serious weight (like a COB). I replaced my old 5/16 braided nylon with new 5/16 line and I can hang off it all day at 210#. The knot I use up above is a bowline with the bitter end tucked into the loop. Below, a figure 8 stopper knot on the block. KISS.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2018 : 07:16:40

Agreed that topping lift strength is very important for emergency use of the boom for COB retrieval. My main point is that improvised changes, like smaller diameter line, can have unintended consequences even if the rope chemistry is stronger.

One other suggestion before you rig this: my boat's topping lift had two pieces. The part that went to the top of the mast ended in a small bowline knot at the bottom about 1' above the boom. The other half that went through the boom ended with a halyard shackle that connected to the bowline loop and could be easily disconnected whenever removing the boom for winter storage and/or hurricane prep. It was EXTREMELY helpful. Maybe everyone has this, and it's obvious, but that's what my boat had.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/04/2018 07:39:16

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2018 : 07:35:16

yep 5/16 staset strength is 3800 lbs. 7/64 amsteel is only 1400 lbs. move up to 3/16 amsteel and strength is 4900 lbs. at still less than 1/4 inch diameter! 5/16 is an incredible 12,300 lbs. Ok Ok, enough with this dead horse! I do find it incredible that a three inch cable of the stuff will hold 1,000,000 lbs. !

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

vdotmatrix
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139 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2018 : 21:34:56

I completely forgot about this. Catalina says 5/16� , i will get 5/16�...thats what you guys use , that�s what i will use. If the jam cleat doesnt hold the new line, then it must be a worn out jam cleat......but the ones on there now seem to be rivited to the boom.

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Again, the boom and topping lift together make a solid crane-like structure that can carry some serious weight (like a COB). I replaced my old 5/16 braided nylon with new 5/16 line and I can hang off it all day at 210#. The knot I use up above is a bowline with the bitter end tucked into the loop. Below, a figure 8 stopper knot on the block. KISS.

RPLieser
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2019 : 18:46:05

I have a 1997 250WB. Would love a topping lift and lose the factory pigtail, however when eyeballing the masthead to boom end, it appears that the curve of the sail leech will interfere with the topping lift. Thoughts? Does it need a crane added?

Edited by - RPLieser on 01/03/2019 18:47:00

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2019 : 20:24:00

With the sail at full hoist, the topping lift should go slightly slack (and of course moves with the boom), generally making it less of a potential obstruction than the backstay. If you have full battens that don't want to pull through, just ease the topping lift a little more so it can lie on the lee side of the leech. (Making it adjustable can be useful in other ways.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/03/2019 20:25:20

vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2019 : 23:03:56

someone had a pigtail on this 2003 c250 and I removed the damn thing the other day....good riddance.....

quote:
Originally posted by RPLieser

I have a 1997 250WB. Would love a topping lift and lose the factory pigtail, however when eyeballing the masthead to boom end, it appears that the curve of the sail leech will interfere with the topping lift. Thoughts? Does it need a crane added?

vdotmatrix
Navigator

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USA
139 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2019 : 23:11:45

Man, I never posted a followup to this post about changing the topping lift. Perhaps I did elsewhee, so I will make this short. After all the research and talking to catalina about what length I needed for the topping lift, i got a few feet extra and when I got up there I was 2 feet short.

I made the mistake of doing this work in a climbing harness instead of a boson chair and I had a safety runner girth hitched around the mast above the spreaders. At the top of the mast just as I finished the work, I suffered the early effects of suspension trauma and was about to pass out and it was everything I could do to undo the safety runner above the spreaders so I could be lowered. I made it to the deck semi conscious and took about 15min to recover, a friend drove me home. Anyway, never ever use a climbing harness and hang for more than 10min. It could prove fatal.

RPLieser
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2019 : 13:01:51

Any experience with a BOOM KICKER in lieu of a topping lift? I don't need the "crane" feature for MOB, as I have an open transom. Seems this might mitigate the sail leech chaffing issue as well.

WK 727
1st Mate

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72 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2019 : 08:50:11

I installed a boom kicker two seasons ago and it is holding up well. It is nice to never worry about the boom dropping when reefing or raising and lowering the sail. <opinion edited> I enjoy having a boom kicker for my personal sailing preference.

I do remember a few thing on the installation. Trying to get the boom kicker mast backing bracket in position and the screws in took a little effort, multiple drops down the slot and a small screw driver delicately holding it in place. Once tightened, it has been rock solid. The boom mount comes with two spacers that ride on each side of the lower extrusion on our boom to create a flat mounting position. They had to be slightly modified to clear the outhaul slot. Then they had to be epoxied with gorilla glue to provide the firm base for the mount. Cutting the fiberglass rods to length was simple.

Operationally? I have a Doyle sailpack with two rods to make it fall open when dropping the main. This extra weight is pushing the boom kicker to what I would consider its limits. The boom vang works smoothly with a boom kicker and reefing is SO much easier. The last thing I added was a pendent about 8" long from the split backstay to the end of the boom to keep the boom from swinging when we are not sailing.

Regards, John
Westlawn Institute graduate
Yacht Design and Naval Architecture
04 Catalina 250 WK
Standard rig w/wheel steering
Yanmar 9hp diesel

Edited by - WK 727 on 01/07/2019 17:02:35

HappyNow
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 01/06/2019 : 11:56:05

I agree with the boomkicker. It came with my boat from previous owner so I can't comment on installation. I use a rubber bungee around the backstay to prevent boom sway. I don't have a stack pack but when reefing or dropping the main in waves, the boom support makes things nicer.

Michael Levin
Sailin' on Sunshine
C250 #402 WK
Lake Tahoe

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2019 : 11:14:41

quote:
Originally posted by WK 727

I will never have a sailboat with a topping lift again, absolutely not.

What, exactly, is so bad about a topping lift to warrant such a bold statement? Mine was very effective. I�d adjust it so that when I raised the main it would have just enough slack to avoid the roach, but plenty high with mainsail down. KISS.

quote:
Originally posted by vdotmatrix

Man, I never posted a followup to this post about changing the topping lift. Perhaps I did elsewhee, so I will make this short. After all the research and talking to catalina about what length I needed for the topping lift, i got a few feet extra and when I got up there I was 2 feet short.

Sorry about your near disaster. Did you install it correctly? It should be attached at the masthead first, and end in a bowline a couple feet above the mast. A second line shackles to this and runs through sheaves in the boom, as I described earlier in this thread.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 01/07/2019 11:18:34

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2019 : 08:21:40

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

quote:
Originally posted by WK 727

I will never have a sailboat with a topping lift again, absolutely not.
What, exactly, is so bad about a topping lift to warrant such a bold statement?

I was wondering the same thing... What I would never have is a pigtail on the backstay. Seems like a good idea until the first time you forget to release it before turning off the wind.

I never had a Boomkicker, but from things I heard and read, I preferred the topping lift because it could handle pretty much any stresses thrown at it, like leaning on the boom when I slipped or a somebody was climbing aboard. And with the sail down, I could yank the mainsheet down hard to hold the boom centered. I'm not sure how the Boomkicker handles those things.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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