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Downwind sail suggestions

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bushav
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/22/2017 : 07:19:11

Gentlemen,

My wife and I have our new 250 "Lucy Lee" in her slip in Florida. This summer we sold our Catalina 22 and purchased Lucy Lee. After upgrading the electrical, installing a new 9.8, having a trailer built and painting the bottom, we are ready to start having fun.

I have never had a downwind sail and have never deployed one. With our 22 we often found ourselves wing on wing. I really want a beautiful downwind sail to add enjoyment to those 5 knot days.

I have purchased previous sails from Judy with Hyde and had good results.

Please give me some suggestions on an easy to use setup that is working for you guys. I am open to other lofts that may have a special product that will work for me. I want it to be a true downwind sail and not a giant genoa.

Thanks,
Lane

Lane

Edited by - bushav on 10/22/2017 07:35:55

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 09:04:57

The classic, "beautiful" downwind sail is the symmetric spinnaker, which I never thought of as "easy to use", especially tacking from broad reach to broad reach... Asymmetric spinnakers (with variations also called "cruising spinnakers" are more like big, full-bellied genoas attached at the stem and mast-head, with or without a pole to the clew. Easier to deploy and control. Moving down, there's the "drifter"--basically a 175%+ genoa typically made of light, often colorful nylon (like a spinnaker) for reaching and running in light air--also typically just attached at the head and tack, so easy to deploy and furl from the cockpit. I've been around all of these on other people's boats--not my own, so I'll pass the mic to the more experienced skippers and foredeck hands.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/22/2017 09:08:43

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 10:32:01

You may want to add a masthead crane, available from Catalina Direct, to avoid interfering with your genoa. I�ve never flown one before, so that�s the extent of my knowledge.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 11:04:00

Are you planning to race your C250, or do you just want to sail downwind quickly while cruising or daysailing?

Sailing a C250 downwind with a 135% genoa poled out as far as possible with a telescoping whisker pole is about as fast a way to get downwind as with any other sail. A C250 has a masthead rig, which is fairly easy to sail wing and wing. Fractional rigs are much more difficult.

The racing rules, however, usually limit the length of the pole to the boat's J measurement, and that severely limits downwind speed. If you won't be racing, then wing and wing with a fully extended telescoping whisker pole is, IMO, the way to go. It's easy to set and take down with one crew member, and it's as fast, or very nearly so, as a spinnaker.

I don't recall ever seeing anyone fly either a symmetrical or assym. spinnaker on a C250, and suspect you'd see it done often if it worked well enough in a sufficiently wide range of conditions to make it worth the trouble and expense.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 11:19:31

Steve�s post reminds me of one reason I never flew an asym on my C250. I did make extensive use of a Forespar whisker pole. I got their small one (about $120 new). Very easy to deploy, and light enough that it needed no topping lift. I worried that it might buckle if backwinded, but that never happened.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/22/2017 11:21:57

bushav
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 11:47:39

The wife and I are pretty comfortable with wing on wing but still would like to see either an asymmetrical spinnaker or something like the "Generator" out there. Has anyone purchased a Generator from ?

Lane

Lane

Edited by - bushav on 10/22/2017 11:48:12

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 13:12:10

quote:
Originally posted by bushav

...but still would like to see either an asymmetrical spinnaker or something like the "Generator" out there. Has anyone purchased a Generator from ?

If you mean a "gennaker"--as far as I know that's another name for an asymmetric (the offspring of a genoa bred with a spinnaker).

Have you sailed with anyone using any of these? Before you spend the money and effort on any of these (and the attendant rigging), it might be instructive to crew with somebody using one--especially before going symmetrical. You may or may not find that the effort involved will soon have you leaving it in the bag--especially if you're not "formally" racing. (You know what they say...) Or, you might discover that with something like a "snuffer" an asym is simple enough to set, jibe, douse, etc.--if your runs or broad reaches are long enough to make it worthwhile. It looks great approaching home port (especially a colorful symmetrical), but might get old faster than you suspect.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/22/2017 13:13:08

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 13:58:11

quote:
Originally posted by bushav

The wife and I are pretty comfortable with wing on wing but still would like to see either an asymmetrical spinnaker or something like the "Generator" out there. Has anyone purchased a Generator from ?

Lane

Do you mean a "gennaker"? When gennakers first came on the scene, it was said that gennaker was a term coined by North Sails for their cruising (or asymmetrical) spinnaker. Now, Wikipedia says a gennaker is optimal for a beam reach, while an asymmetrical spinnaker is optimal for a broad reach or run.

In any case, you seldom see a C250 flying a 155 genoa, because most owners think that much sail area overpowers the C250 too easily. Most owners believe the boat performs really well with a 135 or even a 110. An assym is often described as being like a genoa, only much bigger. Thus, the first question is whether a C250 can carry an assym in a broad enough windspeed range to make it worth the effort and expense.

Secondly, the shortest distance to a downwind objective is dead downwind. An assym can't sail DDW. It collapses if you sail too far downwind. You have to sail downwind at an angle, gybing back and forth. That means you'll travel a greater distance to reach the downwind objective. That means an assym has to increase your speed enough to compensate for the extra distance.

Even though this is the home of the C250, I don't recall anyone ever saying that they flew either a symmetrical or assym spinnaker on a C250. I'll be surprised if anyone here has tried it.

So, if you want to try it, I'd suggest you scour Ebay for a 30 year old assym of about the right size that you can buy very cheap. If it doesn't work, you aren't out nearly as much as if you bought a new one. If it does work, tell us about it, and maybe the C250 owners here will look at their sail choices in a new light.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bushav
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 19:00:20

The "Generator" from Pike Sails is what I was trying to refer to. Spell check threw in the confusion. Has anyone seen this sail in action?

Kind of interesting that none of the 250 crews have seen a 250 flying a spinnaker of any kind. I wonder what the reason is as almost every sail boat out there has seen someone apply a spinnaker of some type to its sail plan at one time or another.

Lane

Lane

Edited by - bushav on 10/22/2017 19:02:44

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 19:09:29

(Opinion: Listen to North before you listen to the anonymous stuff posted on Wikipedia.) But just for an asym, you'll have to rig a halyard (assuming you have a CDI furler (?) with its built-in halyard for the jib/genoa), a pole attachment, and (I'm guessing) some sheeting hardware like a turning block well aft. So buying a cheap sail is not the totality of the experiment. But a rigger or sailmaker can take you through the details.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 19:45:55

quote:
Originally posted by bushav

...Kind of interesting that none of the 250 crews have seen a 250 flying a spinnaker of any kind. I wonder what the reason is as almost every sail boat out there has seen someone apply a spinnaker of some type to its sail plan at one time or another.

In my observations (and opinion), there are a couple of factors. The C-25 was at its peak in the market when many sailors were interested in a boat bigger than the C-22, but not as heavy and beamy as the C-27, and many of them were interested in racing. Thus, the C-22 and C-25 gained a fair number of hank-on-headsail sailors who also flew spinnakers.

Times changed. The Js of various sizes (especially 24 and 22), and similar club racers, took over much of the racing market, while the "cruising" market was going up-sized to 28'+ (for standing headroom, showers, etc.), and the 25-26' general-purpose market virtually disappeared. (Find a new one now.) The C-25 was discontinued in 1991, and the C-250 was introduced in 1995 to try to respond with a lighter, more trailerable, more open family cruiser/daysailer, but never came close to catching on like the C-25 in its time (about 1000 C-250 hulls in 15 years compared to over 1200 C-25s in 1982 alone).

A few people who bought C-250s have entered in handicapped club races, but I've never heard of a C-250 racing fleet or even somebody who bought one to race. (I might get slapped around here, but.....) Many have expressed that the C-250 is a bit tender--I recall (at least at first) only the wing keel version was offered with a 135% genoa from the factory, and the tall rig was discontinued within the first few years, suggesting Catalina was acknowledging that. So the boat was never looked at as a platform for hyping up with a lot of canvas. It was a pretty good light-air performer out of the box, and a little tender in heavier air. But its market was for family sailing, not racing, and that market was shrinking.

So spinnakers on the C-250.....? Well, I haven't seen it happen. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there, and there's always a leader! (In PHRF racing, just expect to be rated down, even though you might be faster around the buoys with just "white sails".)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/22/2017 19:47:24

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2017 : 20:03:01

I think you're referring to [name deleted], not Pike Sails. Based on their description of it, their "Generator" appears to be a light air reaching sail, not a downwind sail.

I race a lot on a lot of different boats around Annapolis, and never heard of the "Generator" until you mentioned it. If it could drive a boat on any point of sail better than a drifter or code zero or any other light air reaching sail, the racers would be using it and talking about it incessantly. I haven't heard a peep about it, either among racers or at the recent Sailboat Show.

You're looking for a downwind sail, and it isn't a downwind sail. Moreover, I don't see anything about it that suggests it will do anything better than any other design of light air reaching sail.

Finally, do a google search for [name deleted], and learn about the company's history before you order a sail.

[edit: I see that the actual name of the company has been deleted from my post, because the company who's name cannot be published on our website once threatened to sue this association as a result of comments made by our members.]

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/22/2017 20:21:56

Commodore
Russ Johnson

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USA
690 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2017 : 23:08:24

Steve,

Thank you for your post.
I almost forgot about this issue.
Here's a link to the original notice.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24314

By the way, they demanded all past and future references to their company be removed. Since they have not contacted the Assoc regarding any changes, I will continue to respect their wishes and block their name.
The forum software has a "nasty word" feature, which auto-corrects posts.
There are several occasions I would liked to have expanded this feature, but this company is the only example.

Russ Johnson, Commodore 2009-2022 (commodore at catalina-capri-25s.org)

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2017 : 00:43:09

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 10/24/2017 07:13:56

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2017 : 04:52:52

Wow Russ! Good research! I had completely forgotten about those discussions of assyms on a C250. Next year, I'm going to use some of the tips on other boats.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2017 : 07:44:19

There's a lot of good information in the archive posts.
Unlike most internet searches, posts from 10-years ago are still timely.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

bushav
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2017 : 09:42:21

Thanks for the links. I�ll study up. Staying away from the mentioned sail vendor is probably a good idea.

Heading out tomorrow for an overnight sail. Can�t wait!

Lane

Lane

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