Association Forum - Waves from the stern

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Waves from the stern

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Member Avatar

108 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/11/2017 : 07:58:38

Hey all!

Just bought my C25: great boat! I really enjoy putting time into it and upgrading the little things that were neglected over the years.

We're on the Hudson in NY, up near Haverstraw.

Boat certainly was not tuned: but last weekend we went out right before a big storm to get on some rougher seas, to try the boat out. Now the waves were quite rough. I didn't look up exactly how high they were that day, but I'd guess varying between 4-8 feet depending where we were on the river. Absolutely the roughest weather I'd expect for that area outside of being in a large storm.

We got pushed around quite a bit. However, the hardest time we had was when trying to sail on a run or broad reach. We wanted to make it up river a bit, maybe anchor somewhere where it was not so rough, since it was otherwise a fairly nice day.

Didn't make it. The wind was there but fairly light. We certainly didn't have the sails trimmed how I would have liked and that lost more power.

I called it, dropped sail, and we had a motor back without issue.

Any tips for sailing in a C25 like I was? I just had very little helm each wave, which was very often!. The back of the boat got washed around!

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 : 08:43:05

Welcome to the forum!

It's tough for a 25' boat to cope with 4-8 foot waves. Big waves can knock a small boat around. It's also difficult to run upstream on a broad reach or run against a river current or tidal current in light air. A broad reach or run is a slow point of sail, and might not generate enough speed to overcome an adverse current. If that happens, your only recourse is to start the motor, or anchor and wait for the wind to increase or the current to abate.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 : 08:51:59

Welcome Ryan! I've seen the big waves on the Hudson when the wind is from the north or south--a very long fetch in some deep water!

Big "following seas" are tricky. Each wave is one full oscillation of the water under the boat, where for a moment, near the crest, the water is moving in your direction faster than you are. That makes your rudder have the opposite effect you expect because it's analogous to the boat backing up. At that moment, pulling the tiller to starboard turns the boat to starboard! A good rule of thumb is when the crest is passing under you, keep the tiller centered, and do your correcting in the trough when the water is cycling back against you. That's when the rudder will act as you expect, although even more quickly. Thus the other rule of thumb: Don't over-steer in following seas.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/11/2017 08:56:52

dasreboot
Admiral

Members Avatar

803 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 : 09:27:39

too bad you did not have much wind. some speed then surfing down those waves would have been exciting.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Members Avatar

108 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 : 09:36:04

Thanks guys!

Yes, we had wind: but it was between a few MPH and 15 MPH gusts. Gusts were handled okay: only had a bit of the genny out and I reefed the main with the expectation of heavier wind (forecast). Didn't want to bring out more sail for various reasons!

Largest problem was crew was a little nervous, so we weren't trimmed how we could have been. With a bit of work I'm sure it would have handled much better.

Great comments here: looking forward to getting back out the next rough day. Was a lot of fun, and overall the boat does eat through waves well: when headed into the wind!

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 : 19:54:18

I learned from our "delivery cruise" with our new-to-us C-25 that she easily handled more than we were comfortable with (especially as brand-new owners). Conditions included 30+ NW winds over the last two days and nights or our trip, with 4-5' steep chop pretty much on the nose. When we entered our marina for the first time with her, we ran aground because that wind had driven so much water out of Long Island Sound! The local marine police couldn't believe we'd been out there... Lesson: Don't have a job-based deadline (my Admiral's, as it turned out)! I was very fortunate she would sail with me after that!

(BTW, as much as I appreciate the conditions that can develop on the Hudson, I don't think 8' is likely. I've seen 8' chop on the Great Lakes, and it's awesome! You'd never want to be there in a 25-footer! 4-5' is possible on parts of the Hudson with strong northerlies, and while you can survive it, it'll will make you wish you'd stayed in port--like we should have.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/11/2017 19:55:56

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2017 : 20:12:20

Ryan -- as mentioned, our boats can take more than many us would want to. In any boat 4+/- seas will be challenging but just take it all one step at a time and focus on sailing -- the boat will take it all in stride! The Haverstraw area offers great sailing -- just remember the current!!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2017 : 07:27:14

We're very fortunate in that we can sail in a large bay protected by a railroad causeway or in the main (broad)lake. With 15 kt winds, we will have plenty of whitecaps in the bay but wave heights typically will remain LE 1 ft while in the lake they may run from 2-3 to 3-4 (NOAA) depending on how long the wind has been steady. Probably due my limited skills but I've found sailing close hauled with good wind in 1 ft waves it is quite easy to sail near hull speed, but close hauled in even 2-3 ft waves with the same wind is incredibly slow although exhilarating (and usually wet) and a broad reach very uncomfortable. Last season I watched a couple of large ketches sail by me as if I were anchored. We once motored about 1.5 mi. in 3-4 seas before we could hide behind an island ...limited chances to recover in good shape if something goes wrong in those conditions. What are some guidelines for sailing in rougher waters?

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Edited by - glivs on 08/12/2017 07:29:39

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2017 : 08:57:23

quote:
Originally posted by glivs

What are some guidelines for sailing in rougher waters?

Your actions must be dictated by considering all the circumstances, i.e., the wind strength, height and period of seas, the direction you want to go, and what alternative destinations are available.

As a general rule, it's easier to run downwind than to windward. When beating to windward, the waves crashing against the bow can nearly stop the boat's forward momentum. When running downwind, the apparent windspeed is reduced significantly, and the sound and fury generally diminish. Understand and accept that it isn't imperative for you to return to your slip or mooring. The only thing that's imperative is that you remain safe. Therefore, don't hesitate to find shelter in the lee of land, where you can anchor until the storm passes. Often, the worst will be over in an hour.

The decision to run downwind assumes that there's someplace to run to. On a small lake or bay, you might not be able to run very far. That emphasizes the importance of seeking shelter at the first sign of bad weather. Don't wait until the severe weather has eliminated some of your options.

I was crewing for a friend when we were hit by 55kt winds, as recorded at Thomas Point Light. We took down all sails and ran downwind using the motor. A friend on his nearby boat was doing the same when his motor quit. He dropped his anchor in deep water under the Chesapeake Bay bridge, and was able to hook something, and ride out the storm at anchor. Anchoring in deep water under the bridge wasn't something the experts would ordinarily recommend, but it worked for him, so don't hesitate to go against "conventional wisdom" if you're in trouble.

If you must go to windward, it's better to do so under sail, rather than using the motor. The sails generate considerably more power than the motor, and can drive the boat to windward and punch through the waves. To do so, however, your sail area must be reduced appropriately, which emphasizes the importance of reefing early, at the first sign of bad weather. After the wind and waves have hit, and you are still grossly overpowered, it might not be possible to reef safely.

Sometimes you can make good progress to windward by dropping the jib and motorsailing to windward. The combined power of the mainsail and motor can punch through the waves, but, if the waves are lifting the prop out of the water, then it's better to sail.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2017 : 10:20:48

I'll just add that when in doubt, set your reef before you go out. It's easier to shake out a reef you don't need than to set it when things start to get dicey. And you can likely do a better job of getting good tension on the foot while you're relaxed at the dock or mooring--you don't need to raise the sail much if at all. (Just remember, if you use the ties to hold the "bundle" up to the boom and run them under the boom, don't tie them so there's any tension on them from the sail when it's raised. Sailmakers will tell you it's the most common cause of damage to sails.)

All of this fits under the old axiom: "The time to reef is when you first think about it."

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/12/2017 10:27:04

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2017 : 17:46:50

One more thought - any shoreline to windward of you is a shelter. Suppose, for example, you're sailing south in the Chesapeake Bay with small craft warnings and the wind is from the SW. If you're sailing down the middle of the bay, you'll find that the waves there will be big and steep, because they'll be traveling over a long fetch. If you'll work your way over to the western shore, you'll find the waves there to be much smaller, because the fetch will be shorter, and the wind with be somewhat weaker because the trees, buildings and terrain will slow the wind. In fact, you might find it so much calmer over there that you might consider dropping anchor in ten feet of water and waiting for the storm to pass, but if you decide to continue sailing, you'll find it so much easier sailing or motoring there that it will surprise you.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/12/2017 17:57:55

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2017 : 16:41:50

Steve, Dave...thanks for responding. I agree safety is always paramount. I'm not out to prove anything or test any limits. I'm just coming from the argument that if I can sail under a 110 and shortened main at 6kt in the bay but can barely make 1kt in the main lake under the same conditions that I must be missing something. Was hoping those of you who are comfortable in 15-20kt winds could offer some tips, e.g., Dave's response to following seas. Thanks.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2017 : 16:53:13

You can always sail at hull speed on a beam reach in big winds if you don't mind rocking and rolling through the breaking crests and deep troughs. Not my preference, so a few weeks ago I tacked between a close reach and a broad reach on southesterlies at 15 knots. It took more time to transit but all my gear below stayed in place. In my area, we get the worst chop and slop you're going to see in these conditions.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Members Avatar

108 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2017 : 05:41:21

Thanks a lot, guys!

Learned about reefing early: and has been useful in some (what the hand-held reported anyway) 10-20mph winds. Still learning, but it's also remarkable what minor changes in the sail shape do for handling as well as having a few pieces of rail meat!

We sailed down to the new Cuomo bridge. Not sure if that area is usually like this, but good swells, though not as large as the ones that prompted me to post this.

Taking some of your advice here, we did great for quite a few hours. Lots of fun and good sailing.

Until a good gust hit us in a run, tossed the boat and bit, and the rudder broke when trying to correct!

Wood rudder, must have had a good amount of rot.

Oh well! Managed to motor something like five miles without a rudder. Not much fun, but points for this old Yamaha.

Time to see if I can get a replacement by Saturday...!

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2017 : 06:20:50

quote:
Originally posted by odonnellryanc

...Until a good gust hit us in a run, tossed the boat and bit, and the rudder broke when trying to correct!

Wood rudder, must have had a good amount of rot...

Glad you were able to gain control! Losing a rudder can be an experience!

The original rudders up to around 1987-88 or so have wood core in the head, where both pintles are attached. The lower (thinner) section is solid fiberglass, but the majority of stress is at the lower pintle--I'll bet that's where yours broke. Moisture can get into the core through the tiller and pintle bolt holes, and through a split in the seam between the two halves of the fiberglass shell--often caused by freezing. Rot is inevitable. (Keep your rudder inside in the winter.)

The new rudders available through Catalina Direct and some other vendors are either solid HDPE, or foam-cored fiberglass. Many are "balanced", meaning 10-15% of the lower blade area is forward of the imaginary line through the pintles. It's like power steering, especially if your boat tends toward significant weather helm. (It doesn't reduce the actual weather helm--just the pull on your arm to correct for it.) If you don't see a forward step below the pintles, it's not balanced.

Use the Search function to see threads that mention a number of sources for C-25 rudders. People have found several. A few have built there own--a serious winter project. But don't be too disappointed if you're not sailing this weekend--you won't find this at West Marine or Walmart.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/05/2017 06:29:08

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Members Avatar

108 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2017 : 06:54:41

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter
...majority of stress is at the lower pintle--I'll bet that's where yours broke. ...

Couldn't be more correct!

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

But don't be too disappointed if you're not sailing this weekend--you won't find this at West Marine or Walmart.

Yes, I understand. I'll have to hear back from CD: if they have something in stock I feel there is a decent chance. If not, well, I've heard good things about their rudders: so I might get one anyway.

Was wild being under sail in heavy winds without a rudder. Good practice dropping sails in a hurry!

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2017 : 07:17:56

A rudder for temporary use, just to keep you sailing until you find a replacement, wouldn't be too difficult to make out of oak. Cut it to roughly the same shape as the original, round over the edges, install the hardware, and it'll work. If you have to piece a couple planks together to make it long enough fore and aft, drill lengthwise through both planks and insert long threaded ss rods to bolt them together. About 3 rods should be sufficient. I'd probably use 2" thick oak.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

hhlaser
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2017 : 07:59:02

I have a spare rudder for sale. Call me on 347-977-6254

odonnellryanc
Navigator

Members Avatar

108 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2017 : 12:15:45

Thanks hhlaser! Nice meeting you, looking forward to using the rudder. Amazing how things work out!

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2017 : 14:41:40

quote:
Originally posted by odonnellryanc

...Was wild being under sail in heavy winds without a rudder...

That's the only time you break a rudder!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2017 : 19:41:58

If/when you replace, you should shoot for a "balanced" rudder. Much better performance. Also, my bet is that the river with significant current contributed to your rudder issues.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.