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New motor for 250 WK on Sakonnet/Narrangansett?

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Don H
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/27/2017 : 14:49:22

Hi All--I'm a proud new owner of '97 Cat 250WK that will sail primarily on the Sakonnet/Narrangansett in RI. I'm comparing new Tohatsu 6hp sailpro and Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust with Electric Start, both 4 strokes, the Yammi close to twice the price and nearly twice the weight (approx 110 lbs). While the Yammi has some sweet features, it's heavy and looks to be a very tight fit direct to transom, where I know the Tohatsu will sit comfortably (and lightly at approx 60 lbs). I know there may be 85-90 lb alternatives with the 25" leg I need, but fewer of them than before, it seems. My main concerns are these, for which I'd welcome the input of any of you with relevant experience:
--is the Tohatsu sufficient power for general daysailing purposes?
--will the size and weight of the Yammi be a problem, for the well, the transom, or how the boat sits in the water?
Thanks in advance for your insights

Don H

kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 15:26:08

That's SaKAWNet, folks...Howdy neighbor, have a 'Gansett! I trust your not up the river where the current is an issue?

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

Don H
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 17:30:19

Hey KJK, thanks for the welcome. Haven't been up that way yet, though now that i have the boat I may. Biggest current challenge to date comes from the waters just outside Stonebridge Harbor. Between prop size, leg length and thrust I figure I'm ok there. Concern is for when wind suddenly kicks up, seas get choppy and I need to get home. Don't care about hull speed so long as the 6 would move me 4-5 knots, if it will in those conditions here. Safe move is the 9.9 for that, but it might be tight in the well and set me too low in the water aft much of the rest of the time. For the money and the trouble, would love to get this one right.

Don H

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 17:52:16

Have you considered an 8hp? A little less$$ and is proven to be adequate.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

WK 727
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 20:24:00

Don, I recently purchased a '04 Cat 250WK after about a year of searching. I just did a quick search and found 12 Catalina 250's for sale on a popular site. 1 - 6hp, 2 - 8hp and 12 - 9.9hp configurations. The past year, I even looked at a few that had 15hp motors. I don't remember looking at a Catalina with a 6hp configuration.

I would lean towards the higher horsepower, you can always throttle down when over powered. When under powered, game over.

Regards, John
Westlawn Institute graduate
Yacht Design and Naval Architecture
04 Catalina 250 WK
Standard rig w/wheel steering
Yanmar 9hp diesel

doublereefed
Navigator

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167 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 20:31:48

Hi Don,

My environment is almost 180 degrees opposite of yours. I'm on a lake at 6,000 feet. I do have an opinion for you though. I have a 6HP Mercury "medium shaft". It's not short... but it's not as long as what you can buy now.

I wish I had a lot more HP in reverse. I spent the money on a few props and now have a combo I like, but I could definitely use more stopping power. The 6HP drives me at hull speed very easily, keeps me head into the wind even in strong winds, but I don't have any wave action knocking me around like I am used to on SF Bay either. My 6HP works fine for me, but I will buy more HP (and the longest shaft) if I ever need to replace my current OB.

Best,

-Richard

'95 C250 WB #61
Midway, UT

Don H
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 20:35:03

Thanks to you both. I have considered 8, but the 25" leg and sail thrust configuration seems to be migrating to the 9.9s in the last year or 2, but for Tohatsu's entry, which has won alot of praise. The research on power for boats on offer is very interesting, not fully surprising. I only wonder how many of those 9.9s are 4 strokes and make use of a direct transom mount. While most discussions favor the higher power, and you put the rationale well, parallel discussions DISfavor the extra weight, and that is of particular concern for the Cat 250 with its light weight and high freeboard.

Don H

Don H
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 20:41:49

Hi Richard-- If I didn't have that wave action, from what I've heard I'd probably go with the 6 and be happy for its advantages. Quantifying the impact of those waves without experiencing them in the 6, that's one rub. The point you make about reverse is another, excellent one. So maybe I'm looking more for reassurance that 110 lbs isn't too much weight, either for the transom or setting in the water, and that the well can comfortably handle a 4 stroke at 9.9

Don H

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2017 : 21:52:09

How important is the weight? Do you need to remove and re-mount the motor often?

A very popular motor for these 25-footers is the Tohatsu 9.8 4-stroke. At around 90 lbs., it's lighter than the Yammie or the Honda, and optionally comes with electric start. For handling Narragansett wind and chop, I'd pick that over the smaller ones, and I'd be sure to get the XL shaft. (The Tohatsu 8 doesn't offer XL.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Don H
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 04:30:11

Hi Dave--Thanks for chiming in: the insight from your experience is much appreciated. I don't have to move the motor often, my weight concern mostly being for what i've heard about the vessel not wanting too much. Much as I think the latest Yammi has some great features and an over the top reputation, your point is well taken that the 9.9 Tohatsu may offer me the advantages of the power (and prop choice!) at 10-15 fewer pounds. I'll investigate further.

Don H

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 06:06:56

I have a Tohatsu 6 hp on my Cal 25, which is similar in displacement to the C250. It's an outstanding motor, and will push the boat at 5.5 kts all day. It's fuel efficiency is phenomenal. If you operate in currents up to about 5.5 kts, it will cope with the currents. If you power up to a higher horsepower, you might get close to an additional knot of boat speed against a current, but at a cost of more weight, bigger engine, less fuel efficiency, etc. As for power to help with docking, you'll likely only need that power if you have an unusual problem to deal with, such as a strong crosswind or current. If your slip is fairly well sheltered from wind and current, 6 hp should be ample.

When I'm considering taking the boat out, I don't go out if I think the conditions are so boisterous that I won't be able to get back into the slip safely.

My Cal 25 slip is extremely tight to enter and leave, so I usually shut off the motor when about 50 ft from it, and coast to the slip, and then use boat hooks to work it into the slip stern-first; the point being that you don't always need to use the motor at all to get in and out of the slip. You can grab the bow pulpit of the next boat with the boat hook to get started in, and then grab a dock piling to pull it in some more. To a certain extent, the conditions under which you normally dock dictate the amount of power you need, but 6 hp should usually be adequate.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 07:16:32

I have only a couple points to add that have not already been said.

First, a difference of ~20 lb from one motor to the next is not going to have any effect on boat trim. You should make your decision on other factors, since you're not going to be removing the motor frequently.

If you want a bigger motor for more reverse thrust, you might consider doing that maneuver in reverse to begin with, and then you can use forward thrust if you need to stop suddenly. In general, it is not a good idea to use reverse gear for sudden changes. Even with more power, you could get cavitation, or even worse, the latch mechanism could release, pulling your prop out of the water instead of stopping your boat.

Also, note that many outboards motors are supplied in "twin" versions, with a higher and lower horsepower version built on the same block (thus the same weight). The only difference between the two is different carburetor and/or other power limiting factor. My C250 came with a 2000-vintage Honda 15 hp, which was exactly the same weight as the Honda 9.9. It was a lot of power, but no greater weight than the 9.9. The extra power did come in handy for maneuvering in 2-3 kt side currents in the Delaware River. (FWIW, last I checked the newer Hondas are all bigger and heavier than the prior generation, with the 8 and 9.9 being "twins" and the 15 and 20 being "twins". So the new 15 is a real monster that you'd never want on a sailboat.)

Personally, I'd only have 6 hp on a very protected lake. For where you are, I think 8 hp would be the minimum. And if the manufacturer has a 9.9 that's a "twin" of the 8, I'd go for the 9.9. Sorry, I don't know much about Tohatsu or Nissan/Mercury design specs.

Also, no matter what power you get, don't even consider anything that isn't an extra long shaft. You want the prop as deep in the water as possible. What if you're caught in a heavy blow off the starboard side, and the boat heels even with bare poles? You might be forced to go 90 or 180 degrees from the desired direction just to keep the prop in the water. And where you are you could also get some lumpy seas that need the prop to be deep.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/28/2017 07:24:59

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 08:28:20

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

If you operate in currents up to about 5.5 kts, it will cope with the currents.

Meaning keep you in place? Against a 5.5 knot current, the best any outboard will do on a 25-footer is less than a knot over the bottom--unless it has enough power to get you into semi-displacement mode (bow out of the water). And on a course at an angle to the current, you'll lose ground to it.

Regarding Honda twins, incidentally, a Honda Marine rep. at a show advised me that the current generation Honda 8 is the better choice for a sailboat than the "twin" 9.9. He said the only difference between the two (other than price) is the 9.9 is cammed for speed for a boat that planes, and the 8 is cammed for more torque at lower speeds (thus lower hp at WOT). With our Honda 8's high-thrust prop and exhaust venting, a little burst in reverse stopped our C-25 like it had run into a pillow, and pulled it into our very tight slip with great accuracy. And unlike the Yamaha at the time, it had a pull starter in case the battery flaked out.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/28/2017 08:32:46

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 09:44:39

I would recommend the higher horsepower, extra long shaft for the many reasons noted above. You usually won't need the extra power but you may find yourself in an unplanned situation where you'll be glad you have it.

1998 250WK #331
CILCIA
Steve
Pensacola, FL

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 11:25:35

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

If you operate in currents up to about 5.5 kts, it will cope with the currents.
Meaning keep you in place?

No. As I said, if you operate in currents up to about 5.5 kts, it will cope with the currents. At or above 5.5 kts of current, you'll either keep in place or drift backwards. If the boat won't go faster than the current, you can't make progress against the current. Your option is to anchor until the current subsides, or to go to an alternate destination.

If you're concerned about currents, and you have a displacement boat, you can't gain much by getting a more powerful engine. Your better choice is to check for currents before you leave, and know where the shallow water is, because the current will be much less in shallow water. If you get out of deep water, into the shallowest water that your draft will allow, you'll often be able to get to your destination.

In any case, a C250 has a displacement hull, and the general rule is that it cannot be driven above it's designed hull speed without an inordinate amount of power. Consequently, it is generally thought that any amount of power beyond what is necessary to drive the boat up to hull speed is wasted power.

I would not have a 110 lb outboard motor if I had any alternative. If you have to remove it to trailer the boat or to service the motor (such as replacement of an impeller), it's a two-man job, and scary at that, because whether you're on the boat or on the dock, you're reaching out with poor leverage. By comparison, I can remove my Tohatsu 6 alone, while underway, to stow it below during a race. Likewise, I can remove it or install it myself at the dock, for service.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 11:27:52

Also note that if and when you decide to sell the boat, A 6hp on the back might be a deal breaker for some. It probably would be to me.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

gosenbach
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 12:57:08

I have a 15 hp Honda on my 250WK and have no problems. The manual says the dry weight of the motor is 110# and no noticeable problems. Although when I get around to expanding my battery bank, that is all going to go on the oppisite side of the boat for sure.

Gregory
(Catalina 250 MkII WK #971)

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2017 : 19:05:44

Removing a 15 hp outboard was easy for me. Lash the boom vang or main sheet tackle to the aft-most part of the perch seat, other end to the carry handle of the motor. One hand for the line, other hand pulls the motor aft as it comes down to keep from scratching the transom. I did it by myself every year from ground level on the hard. Could also be done from a floating dock.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/28/2017 19:07:25

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2017 : 08:38:10

Then there's noise... As said, we had the 2-cylinder high-thrust Honda 8, which drove the boat at 5-5.5 kts at maybe a little over half throttle. A dock-mate had a one-cylinder 6 hp on his C-25, which sounded like it was at WOT most of the time. We could hold a comfortable conversation in the cockpit while under power. He... not so much! But then again, we supposedly buy these boats to sail.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Don H
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2017 : 19:05:12

Thank you one and all for your comments. I've been persuaded to set aside my interest in the 6hp Sailpro (too high a liklihood that it will occasionally be too little power for my needs, though if I become a racer I will reconsider it on the virtues). Also will set aside my interest in the Yammi, (as heavier than needed for the power and, in the end, it won't fit into the well). I will decide between an available, used Tohatsu 4 stroke, 8 hp with 20 shaft, on a 10" mount, and a new Tohatsu 9.8 with 25 in shaft, electric start, transom mounted. I'll report back results after decision and use, by midsummer, to help anyone else who faces a similar dilemma. Your comments proved very helpful in making sure all angles were being considered and led me to refocus my search. Thanks.

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2017 : 11:08:59

I have experienced some strong tidal currents around the Narragansett and on the Sakonnet River, and my friend's C25 has a 9.9hp engine that is able to handle those conditions.

A bigger outboard does not help you much in heavy chop, since the prop will just come up out of the water. Unless it's an emergency, it's safer for the engine and more pleasant to sail in big waves. Revving the engine in the troughs and throttling down on the wave peaks is very hard to do, and it is not fun.

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Don H
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2018 : 10:13:58

Reporting back one year later:

I ended up going with the 9.8 Tohatsu, extra long leg, bigfoot prop, electric start, mounted direct to transom. It's proven to be a very good decision for me for sailing the environs of the Narragansett: easy motor to raise and lower, starts like a charm, quiet, rarely gets above half throttle and plenty of power, not a gas guzzler, good alternator. The motor fits comfortably in the well, though the boat is best steered from the tiller. The Sailpro 6 probably would be fine for most uses, but better to have a little more than you need than less when you need it, as some of you pointed out. The Yammi looks to be a great engine, but a very tight fit for this space and considerably more $$$. I didn't care for some of what I read about the Hondas, and the Mercurys available to me were priced even higher than Yammi, though I imagine both engines have their fans and would be fine in the right circumstances.

Thanks one and all for your informative and helpful comments.

Don H

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2018 : 14:13:54

You won't regret that choice--probably as good as there is for these boats, especially on water like the 'Gansett. And if you wander around the corner into Buzzard's Bay, you'll be even more secure! (I don't think I've ever seen it under 25 with 3-4' there.

)

BTW, IIRC, the Merc is a Tohatsu.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/07/2018 14:18:45

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