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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/23/2017 : 06:18:06

I have had my boat for about five years and I keep learning things that you guys probably already know. Monday afternoon I and a couple of friends, that have been sailing for most of their lives, took my boat out. Wind was about 25 to 30. We started out with one reef in the main and the 150 rolled to about 135. Later we furled up the jib to about 100. Then later put the double reef in the main. What I experienced was that the boat was much gentler to sail, I did not give up boat speed, helm was balanced and side drift was less. It was a perfect day for sailing. Warm, Sunny, Windy & Great Friends.

We did not put up a spinnaker, although it was tempting.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - hewebb on 03/23/2017 06:20:04

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2017 : 07:45:24

There you go. You learned to match your sails to the conditions. This is probably one of the hardest part of sailing that new and even older sailors have to learn. Keep the boat on its feet!

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2017 : 15:32:22

quote:
Originally posted by hewebb

...I did not give up boat speed, helm was balanced and side drift was less...

You were keeping the sails more upright to the wind, and the keel more vertical in the water--what the boat is designed for. And you moved the center of effort of the rig forward a little, keeping the stiff breeze from exaggerating your normal weather helm. You would have walked by an identical boat with full sails.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/23/2017 15:40:00

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 11:00:13

Why do the photos of the boats in the nationals races usually show the leaders heeled well over?

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 11:58:14

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

Why do the photos of the boats in the nationals races usually show the leaders heeled well over?

There are lots of reasons.

A racer uses the sails that he thinks are correct for the wind at the start. If the wind increases after the start, then he should ideally reduce sail area. If he has a headfoil with two slots, he can change headsails without hardly missing a beat, but, if he only has one slot, or if he has a hanked-on genoa, he has to drop the genoa before he can raise a different sail. He'll lose so much time in making the sail change that the fleet will usually pass him. Unless it's a long race, it's usually best to carry on as best you can, unless your boat is rigged to make quick sail changes.

Another reason is that some people use their mainsail reefing so seldom that they don't know how to tuck in a reef quickly while underway.

Racing isn't always about using the best seamanship. It's about beating the other guy. If the wind pipes up, and you see that nobody else has shortened sail, and if you're leading, or at least doing well, there's a tendency to stick with what's working, rather than changing something and finding out that it was the wrong thing to do. On the other hand, if you see that another boat has shortened sail, and that he's overtaking you, then it's time for you to follow suit.

Also, people with cameras usually wait until a big gust comes along and the boat is heeling steeply to snap a picture. A heeling boat is more visually exciting than one that is standing upright.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 12:23:31

Thank you, Steve!

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 13:31:21

I wonder whether our Nationals committee would race in the 25-30 knots Howard is talking about. Not many entrants would have a second reef point on a standard rig sail as Howard has, and a second reef on a tall rig is about the same as the first on a standard--enough sail with a hanked-on 110 to cause a lot of heel in 30 knot gusts. 25-30 wouldn't be fun for most C-25 people, and might break some stuff. I'd think the limit might be 20-25, although sea state probably would be another factor. (I'll probably hear from Kansas...

)

The spinnaker was "tempting"??

It's hard to reduce that...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/24/2017 13:33:34

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 14:20:24

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I wonder whether our Nationals committee would race in the 25-30 knots Howard is talking about.

Ordinarily our nationals committee wouldn't make that call. That's a judgment call for the local race committee that is managing the race. They're in a boat, on site, and measuring the wind and experiencing the waves, and they're best situated to make the decision.

In the Annapolis area, the break point is at about 25 kts for races on the Bay, because waves on the Bay can be very rough, especially for small boats. I once saw a 30' boat get swamped and sink in about 25 kt winds, and I saw a catamaran come into a marina with a crewmember with a dislocated shoulder, so 25 kts with occasional higher gusts can be dangerous on the open Bay. If the race is on a river, the waves won't be nearly as rough, and I have raced in winds up to 39 kts. On small inland lakes, they might race in higher winds than 25 kts. There's no specific limit. The line is drawn when the conditions are unreasonably hazardous.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 07:37:40

When the Nationals were on Lake Cheney (in Kansas) I don't think we ever saw less than 20 - 25 knots. I think the only comfortable racer was "Kansas Twister" who had 6 hefty guys on board as movable ballast.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 09:05:45

Part of my thinking was that if the association wants to make a national regatta an event that will be attractive to C-25 folks (as opposed to hard-core J-24 or Star racers), it shouldn't require them to race in conditions that many have never dealt with (except by taking the sails down) in order to compete for awards, including the trophy. With a few exceptions, people who buy C-25s and C-250s aren't hard-core racers. And yes, I tend to think of big-water conditions where 25-30 creates 5-8' short, capping chop that can throw a 25' boat around, soaking and possibly hurting people, especially under sail. Indeed, an inland lake or river is a somewhat different story. But I'll admit to being something of a wuss... (or an old "safety-conscious skipper.")

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 10:51:52

Nobody is ever required to sail in conditions that are beyond their abilities, regardless of whether they're cruising, daysailing or racing. It isn't ultimately the responsibility of a race committee or race organizers to decide whether or when any boat sails. That decision is the responsibility of each skipper and each crew member. Nevertheless, I have never seen a race committee that didn't put safety of the participants above all other considerations.

If conditions are too rough, the RC will postpone the start. If conditions deteriorate after the start, they will either shorten the course or abandon the race. Whenever a participant believes it is unsafe for his boat to continue, he should retire from the race. Commonly, smaller boats retire before bigger boats, because bigger boats are usually more seaworthy than smaller boats. I have seen a whole day of racing, and even a 2 day regatta canceled due to severe weather, even though racers paid a $100. entry fee, a banquet was organized, trophies were purchased, tents were rented, etc. Safety of participants has always the primary concern in every race which I have ever entered. In fact, in the most recent Cal 25 National Championship, two full days of races were planned. The entire first day was canceled, and only one race was conducted on the second day, even though teams had traveled from as far as California and Detroit to participate.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/25/2017 10:58:37

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 12:14:28

Right on with Steve! It is the captain's responsibility to decide what's safe for his boat, experience, and crew. Races are delayed or cancelled when conditions potentially dangerous, but that doesn't mean you have to go or stay out when you"re uncomfortable. I don't race, but my cruises have often been delayed or revised due to conditions that some would happily engage. I singlehand a lot and 10 - 15 is sweet, 15 - 20 depends on the sea state and how energetic I feel, 20 - 25 is work. I don't start out above 20 or so, but I do sometimes get caught it it. Last winter I headed out for a small, protected anchorage on St. Joseph Point, about 10 miles, with a predicted 10 - 15 southwesterly. It became a 0 - 3 about 1 1/2 hours out for half an hour before coming back as a 15 - 20 southeasterly. Being on the Northwest end of the bay and the marina directly Southeast was not the best situation. I motorsailed (Sailboats are more stable with a little sail up.) East through very sloppy 4 footers crashing over the forward quarter until getting within half a mile of the shore and out of the slop. Abandoning a plan is part of seamanship.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 20:54:17

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...I have never seen a race committee that didn't put safety of the participants above all other considerations.

I have, in the face of a violent front that was forecast many days in advance. It arrived mid-race, and a revered skipper died. I recall the winds were measured to around 75. I was there--on shore securing my boat and then running to my car through the sand-storm coming from the beach... Why they were out in what I saw coming for at least two hours (greenish-black sky to the NW) has long been a sad mystery to me. But I grew up in the midwest where that color, more rare in the NE, means BIG TROUBLE.

In marginal conditions in a brief National regatta, the skipper who opts out (DNS) of one race presumes to give up their and their crew's chances to place in the entire regatta. That has clouded some skippers' judgement. (Case above.) Anecdotal, but indelible in my mind.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/25/2017 21:04:27

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2017 : 08:42:22

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...I have never seen a race committee that didn't put safety of the participants above all other considerations.
I have, in the face of a violent front that was forecast many days in advance. It arrived mid-race, and a revered skipper died.

The members of a race committee consist of local racers who are willing to take their turn working RC instead of racing. The racers are their friends, and they are generally very concerned about the safety of their friends. I wasn't there and don't know what happened that day, but I wouldn't be too quick to believe that the RC foolishly disregarded unambiguous warnings of extreme weather, or to blame the RC for the death. I have worked RC more than most racers, because I enjoy the experience, and the likelihood is that they made a judgment call based on the best information that they had, and it turned out to be wrong.

quote:
In marginal conditions in a brief National regatta, the skipper who opts out (DNS) of one race presumes to give up their and their crew's chances to place in the entire regatta. That has clouded some skippers' judgement. (Case above.) Anecdotal, but indelible in my mind.

If that happens, it doesn't stand as a condemnation of the sport or of the RC. The skipper is responsible. But, I have seen many instances where participants have radioed the RC and suggested that the next race be postponed or cancelled because there's not enough wind or too much wind. In those instances, I have seen the RC take a straw poll of the participants and consider that in deciding how to proceed. If a race is postponed, cancelled, or abandoned it affects all the participants equally. When safety became an issue, I have never seen a RC opt for a choice that they didn't believe was safe.

When someone drives through a railroad crossing and is hit by a train, that doesn't mean the laws are inadequate, or that the police aren't enforcing them properly. It just means that the driver made a fatal mistake.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2017 : 21:22:06

With all due respect to most race committees, this one failed abjectly. The forecast for violence was there for days. The sky said "extreme danger" for hours. I didn't hear NOAA, but they probably warned of 50+ (at least) for well over an hour. I saw the front when we were in another town a couple of hours in advance of its arrival, knew it was going to be extreme, went to our boat club to secure my boat on the dock, and had a hard time finding a way home with all the trees that were down after the front passed. The yacht club's race committee ****ed up, and I don't know how many skippers followed suit. Several boats were dismasted, and the fatality was (as I recall) due to a boom hitting the skipper who was beloved in the club and the town. I will never forget or understand it. I can only attribute it to a "racing mentality" that I don't share.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/26/2017 21:23:11

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2017 : 04:30:17

Dave, Are you talking about the famous Labor Day storm? I think it was back in the 90's maybe?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2017 : 14:59:31

June 1997. Sorry if I've hyjacked a nice story...

Be prudent out there.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2017 : 16:14:18

This is the one I will never forget and what I thought you might have been talking about. 1998 http://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/08/nyregion/4-are-killed-as-storms-lash-the-northeast.html

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2017 : 07:12:36

And then there's the Dauphin Island Regatta of 2015.

http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2015/05/a_cruel_wind_how_the_2015_daup.html

1998 250WK #331
CILCIA
Steve
Pensacola, FL

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2017 : 13:49:06

Then there was my wife's and my first real sail on Passage--delivering her 90 miles from Mystic where we bought her to Darien, CT, where we lived, in May, 2001. Our plan was to stop in Mattituck, Long Island, and then head for home or stop again somewhere on the CT side. Motor-sailing in almost dead air across L.I. Sound to Mattituck, I noticed there was no western horizon. I switched the VHF to NOAA, and heard of a squall line moving 50 mph down the sound with winds to 75. We furled both sails and motored as fast as we could about five miles to a sheltered cove on the Connecticut River, where we picked up a mooring just as it hit. All hell broke loose! If we hadn't gotten the mooring pennant on, we probably would have ended up on the shore. When it was over, we had tree branches in the cockpit from 50-100 yards away. If we'd been on the sound, it probably would have been the last time my wife would have sailed with me! After that, I became a weather-nazi.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/28/2017 13:51:40

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
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