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What do mast base fasteners mate with?

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OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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25 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/11/2016 : 10:13:35

Or more specifically, are the bolts into a threaded piece of metal or are there nuts that need to be held to tighten the base bolts? Reason I ask is the following photo...

It appears my two rear base bolts are loose and have been for some time from the dust/dirt under the base. I suspect this was a path for some water intrusion over the history of the boat.

I hope to clean out the old "goo" and place new goo under and re-tighten (while hoping they aren't loose due to stripping.) But before touching the bolts I wanted to make sure that they were into a threaded base and it was safe to tighten them. Otherwise I imagine I'd need to put an inspection cover in the ceiling. I tried to scope out what was under there with the parts catalogue and it lists the fasteners from the top but no showing what they are mated with underneath.

Any insight/tips would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Tim

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 10:33:56

There should be acorn nuts inside. You can see two of them in this photo..

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 11:33:33

My interior appearance is as follows but mine is also only #89 and I am used to seeing a lot different from pictures other folks submit...

After scratching off some silicone I discovered the one hole that now appears in one of the pictures but nothing protrudes through it and it is almost as if there is some sort of sealer/filler behind it. I've no interior access to any nuts, etc. which is why I was inquiring.

I guess I can try and apply a little gentle torque to one to determine if it is in fact threading into something or spinning freely.

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 12:00:15

I've read that Catalina used lag bolt on some boats. My boat an 87 has the two forward bolts thru bolted like David Buoys photo but I could never find the rear bolts inside the cabin so I assume my two rear bolts are lag bolts. I would guess you have all lag bolts due to the lack of any nuts or bolts on the interior. Could be that the wood core that sits in that cupped area you see on the inside is soggy and the lag bolts have pulled out. The rear bolts possibly screw through that wood core and into the compression post. Maybe some of the others have taken the plate off and know more.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 12:38:03

I am wondering how the plate got pulled up in the first place and the only thing I can think of is that the wood core is/was wet when someone went to raise the mast. When the mast first starts to go up there is mostly forward pressure on the plate. The rear of the plate wants to lift up. That forward pressure could have pulled the bolts out of the wet wood. Once the mast is up the only pressure on the plate is straight down.

quote:
are the bolts into a threaded piece of metal

No, They are either thru bolted or lag bolted into wood.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/11/2016 12:42:15

OrovilleTim
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Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 13:11:18

Lag bolted into wood would worse than I'd thought. I was hoping they were into/thru a metal frame that I envisioned spanning across and bolted into the bulkhead. None of that shows on the parts catalogue. The only reference is the following for the fasteners for "pivoting mast step":

It mentions four #16 1 1/4" flat head wood screws and mine has what looks to be substantially larger than that (at least 1/2" bolt head). I'm hoping I'm looking at the wrong part.

I guess if I try and tighten it some and it goes nowhere then I'll know it was most likely pulled from wood with opportunities.

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

Edited by - OrovilleTim on 10/11/2016 13:12:05

OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 13:23:35

The "mast step mounting kit" from CD includes adhesive sealant, two lag screws, and two wood screws: https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/238/mast-step-mounting-kit-c-25.cfm

I'm suppressing some comments that could be mistaken as crude at this point.

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 13:47:26

Comment deleted. I can't remember the setup in my boat, but I believe I had 2 lag bolts and 2 thru bolts. The lag bolts went into the compression post.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 10/11/2016 13:54:48

OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 14:43:00

I think I'll go ahead and turn the lag bolts a little and see if there is resistance. If there isn't then perhaps I'll have to go the Git-Rot/sawdust route. It seems like it's been static in this position for sometime but I'm just a little afraid of how it looks. If I have to totally remove it to repair it I may put a halyard organizer plate on it so maybe it's not all a bad thing after all. It just looks real scary to my paranoid eyes at the moment.

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 15:22:27

What's really scary to me is that if you lower the mast to repair this, Will that plate fully pull out when the mast gets past 45deg. That could be ugly. I think you might have discovered another Catalina improvement. Maybe early boats had the mast plates just lag bolted and sometime in the later years they switched to a combination of thru bolts and lag bolts.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/11/2016 17:28:27

TEM58
Navigator

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Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 18:24:49

My 83 had four lags. When I put the new step on there was no water intrusion-- which was a relief because the bolts had backed out about a thread's distance.

Tim M
�Perfect Match II�
2003 C350 #35
Cruising FL
PO "Wine Down"
2000 C250 WK #453
PO "Perfect Match"
1983 C25 SR/SK #3932
Lake Belton
Belton, TX

GaryB
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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 19:10:38

To me the picture is taken from the back of the mast looking forward. If that's the case when he lowers the mast it should push the mast plate down.

I'm guessing someone may have lowered the mast to the front and dropped it pulling those lag bolts up. Also guessing that cupped area has wood in it and the bolts are probably lagged into that wood.

Edit: Funny how we humans get so excited about a new toy that we never see the obvious. No matter how diligent we are when looking at boats, once we sign on the dotted line and get the keys we start seeing all the things we missed when "kicking the tires".

Perfect example of why it's best to hire a surveyor if we can afford it and or if the price of the boat justifies the expense. Usually it's the best $400 we will ever spend on the boat.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 10/11/2016 19:14:55

OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/11/2016 : 20:13:34

Speaking of ignoring the obvious, ran into an old sailor at the marina and told him of my predicament and that I was just coming down to tap around and see if it was rotted around the holes or caved in around the plate. He looks over and says "well, your front sail doesn't look as bowed as some of these older boats" and proceeded to point deeply dipped furled sails out, and then continued "but to me it sure sounds like your backstay doesn't have nearly enough tension.

He then goes below deck, grabs some little cable tension thing and shows me how to use it and tells me what it should read. Go and read the backstay and it's nowhere near what he told me it should be.

So, it actually leveled out after tightening it just a bit to see what it would do but that also means the lag screws have worked themselves free over time. All is solid around the base luckily so I dodged a bullet and it looks like some filling, drilling, and sealing is all that's in order.

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2016 : 06:15:30

I've read about a method for making a water-impervious hole for screwing something into wood. (I have not done this.)

1. Drill a larger hole into the wood.

2. Coat a lag screw or bolt with a thin film of melted bees wax and let it harden. (I don't know why it should come from bees--I just read it.)

3. Pour unthickened epoxy into the hole, and then push the wax-coated screw into the epoxy, removing epoxy from the surface as it is squeezed out of the hole.

4. Let the epoxy harden and then back the screw out of the hole. Presto--you have a perfectly threaded "socket" for the screw, and water cannot penetrate the wood through the hole.

Again, I have not done this, and I don't remember who wrote what I saw, so.......

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2016 : 06:23:31

One more thing: That tabernacle should be re-bedded, not just tightened down. That would also be an opportunity to add CD's mast base plate that has holes for swivel blocks should you want to lead more things back from the mast to the cockpit. It fits under the tabernacle. (Insert Frank Hopper's photo here.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/12/2016 : 07:07:32

Thanks for the tips Dave. We have a big rain coming in (it only rains in California when you have something to do) so I may just temporarily seal it to keep everything dry and then do the repair, mast plate, and re-bed when it is back to boringly-normal weather.

When I saw that mast plate on CD while researching this I thought it would be pretty neat to have more control from the cockpit. I then saw my friend's boat last night where he had done something similar though not as clean as the CD plate so the CD version instantly looked that much more attractive.

We spent a good amount of time on the boat last night despite me just running down real quick to check things out. Next thing I know my new "old sailor" friend has got me letting him inspect everything, giving me tips, etc. Sometimes I think he's more excited for us to get out on the lake than we are, haha.

Since it was cool we finally also dealt with all the wasp nests on the sail. If it's not windy today we'll clean up the wasp nest remnants and dirt from a birds nest on the mainsail (visible in the above pic). Sails are still *very* crisp as they are only a few years old from CD with just a few uses. The sails cost a bit more than I paid for the entire boat. :)

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

dasreboot
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/12/2016 : 10:33:58

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

2. Coat a lag screw or bolt with a thin film of melted bees wax and let it harden. (I don't know why it should come from bees--I just read it.)

ive used grease so that the epoxy will not stick to the bolt.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2016 : 13:09:14

Tim, many people have run lines back by mounting stand-up blocks on the deck by the mast. The CD plate eliminates all those screw holes in the fiberglass and keeps the area clearer, although you don't worry as much about footing up there after you've run everything back!

One day, after not having sailed for a couple of weeks, I hoisted the main, a mud-dauber wasp nest (mud tube) fell off the sail into the cockpit, and several dozen wingless wasps were crawling all over everything! In my current boat, the mud-daubers nest in the heat-sink for my hardtop-mounted VHF, behind the wiper motors, in the wire chases, under the gunwales,...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2016 : 10:38:43

What happened to your pictures? I was going to make a comment.

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Edited by - OJ on 10/13/2016 10:39:05

OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/13/2016 : 10:54:02

quote:
Originally posted by OJ

What happened to your pictures? I was going to make a comment.

It looks like something is (hopefully only temporarily) wonky with Photobucket. The links and everything are still there but even when I try and look at them directly on Photobucket I just get the spinning "working on something" indicator.

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2016 : 14:37:25

I have to correct myself, I looked today and it turns out that I have four machine screws with acorn nuts on the interior. Two forward and two aft of the compression post. No lag bolts

Up on the deck side they are Philips pan heads, Not hex heads.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

OrovilleTim
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/17/2016 : 07:13:21

quote:
Originally posted by islander

I have to correct myself, I looked today and it turns out that I have four machine screws with acorn nuts on the interior. Two forward and two aft of the compression post. No lag bolts]

Thanks! I'm thinking that might be a good solution for my case. I read somewhere (I seem to recall it being on here during a search) that it was desirable for the mast to rip out easy in the case of an extreme situation. I myself would like positive feedback that they are secure and the wood screw / lag bolt doesn't fit well with my "mechanical" brain. If things are hairy enough for an "extreme situation" capable of ripping off the mast being the possibility, I think I'd prefer to keep it in the marina ;)

As it stands now the gap is much smaller with the backstay tightened down some. I put some silicone underneath it to keep water out until I could unstep the mast and do a proper solution along with a new CD halyard plate.

C-25 #89 - Dos Kilo$, 1977 SR/FK/"L" Interior
Tim & Nikki, Lake Oroville CA USA

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2016 : 08:01:53

I think the use of through bolts vs. lag screws is a matter of choosing your own poison. Each has it's positives and negatives.

The lag screws on my C25 became loose after many years, but they never caused a problem for me. When lowering the mast, they penetrated deep enough so that the mast didn't lift out unintentionally.

If the mast falls while you're taking it down, or, if a forestay breaks and the mast falls, lag bolts are likely to just pull out of the deck without destroying the fiberglass. If the mast tabernacle is secured with through bolts however, and if the mast falls, then it's possible that it might cause some structural damage to the coach roof, especially if you lower it towards the bow, and the mast lands on the bow pulpit. When something like that happens, something has to give way. Either the attachment to the coach roof will give way, or perhaps the mast itself will bend at the point where it falls onto the bow pulpit. That would be more likely if it was a tall rig.

But, the good news is that this is all mostly speculation. It's a possibility, and there may have been an instance where it has happened, but I don't recall anyone here ever reporting it happening, so it must be unlikely in any event.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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