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Standard main on a tall rig?

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sfsmith
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Initially Posted - 09/14/2016 : 07:41:21

Has anybody tried a standard mainsail on a tall rig? I searched the archives but couldn't find much.

I had my mainsail cut down by about a foot several years ago to allow room for a bimini. It's original to the boat and I'm ready to replace it. I don't have the bimini anymore, but I've gotten used to the extra headroom, I don't race and my wife and I usually reef the main anyway. So a standard main makes sense to me.

I'm looking at the Ullman full-batten, loose-footed main Catalina Direct has now for 15% off.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Solomon Smith
TANGO 89/WK/TR/#5942
Petoskey, Michigan

OJ
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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 09:31:25

I guess I'd lean towards a tall rig sail to take advantage of light winds and avoid a possible negative impact on the eventual future sale of the boat.

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 10:25:54

I believe some tall rig owners have used standard rig mainsails, and others have used Capri 25 mainsails. I believe one of the slides will slip out of the opening in the kerf, but if you have mast gates, that won't be a problem.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 10:34:55

Hey Solomon,
The standard rig mainsail's luff measurement is three feet shorter than the tall-rig. If you shortened your "old" mainsail by a foot, the boom/sail's foot would be another two feet higher if you raise the head of a standard rig main all the way up the mast.
A Capri 25 mainsail will be a choice closer to the size that you have been sailing with (the luff length on the Capri 25 is about a foot shorter than a tall-rig C-25 (and the foot is about the same length).
Bill Holcomb - - Snickerdoodle #4839

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 10:35:12

I agree with OJ, but you might also take a look at the mainsail for the Capri 25. The P dimension (luff) on the C-25 TR is 27.66 ft. On the Capri 25, it is 26.50 ft. or 1.16 ft shorter. The E dimension (foot) is 9.58 on the C-25 and 9.50 on the Capri 25, only .08 ft. difference. Seems like that would be about the same size as the TR sail you had cut down.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

offshoreaccount
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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 12:10:41

quote:
Originally posted by OJ

I guess I'd lean towards a tall rig sail to take advantage of light winds and avoid a possible negative impact on the eventual future sale of the boat.

You say that like you don't take a bath regardless of what you do.

Offshore Account, 1977 Hull #243. SR, SK

Good Times
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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 18:26:34

I came up with another option: got a tall rig sail and had the sailmaker put in the first 'reef' 15" up from the bottom (you can fiddle with this number to your liking); I also had to replace my fixed goose neck with a sliding one - but I assume yours is already a sliding one since you were able to raise the boom.

Full sail for racing or low wind days and for fun in the sun days I raise the sail to the top then 'reef' the boom up so it clears the bimini or gives you the desired head room.

Andy

Andy Kohler

C25 #6012 TR WK
traditional layout

16ft Hobie Cat
23.5 Hunter

cshaw
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Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 18:45:29

quote:
Originally posted by sfsmith

Has anybody tried a standard mainsail on a tall rig? I searched the archives but couldn't find much. Thoughts? Opinions?

Solomon,
Confetti is a tall rig, and I use a bimini. I hoisted the tall rig main fully and marked the mast where the bottom of the boom was located. Be sure to tension the down haul to tension the luff of the main like it would be tensioned if it was windy.

Now measure how much the boom needs to be raised to give you the clearance you want (for headroom or Bimini). Uncleat the down haul and use your jib halyard to pull up and hold the gooseneck end. Assuming your back stay has a pigtail, run a line from it down to the boom to hold up the aft end. If no pigtail use the main halyard.

Now mark the mast where the bottom of the boom is. Make the mark about 4" higher than the bottom of the mast to allow for luff streach.

The distance between the marks is the size of the reef you need to have installed.

In really light air but cool enough to not need the Bimini, you will appreciate the extra mains'l area. Also,as was pointed out previously, if you sell the boat it's good to have the right sized sail.

Cheers

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2016 : 19:40:10

I like the Capri sail idea--as long as at full hoist the gooseneck doesn't end up at the opening in the mast slot. The Capri sail is a fair amount larger than the C-25 SR sail, and apparently about what you've already had made. It will be a lot more convenient than messing with a reef you might never shake out, and as an old SR owner, I don't think you'll be disappointed unless you try to race with a TR handicap--and even then only in pretty light air.

At full hoist, the SR sail is going to look rather odd, and the sheeting angle might not be good due to the height of the boom. The heeling force will be about as great as with the TR sail, but the drive will be reduced. I suspect you won't be able to have as much roach as on the SR sail, especially with full battens, because the TR backstay angle is more acute.

Wayzata Yacht Club in Minnesota has a large one-design racing fleet of Capri 25s--I suspect there are some pretty good sails available at the end of the season from those racers--I think their class rules allow them to buy a new one every couple of years. Alernatively, you could ask Ullman about a Capri 25 sail, or some custom variation to your specs.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/14/2016 19:50:18

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/15/2016 : 03:44:59

There is another option rather than going with a std main that may be shorter than desired - Instead of ordering a main sail off the shelf, you could go with a local or semi-local sailmaker that can custom set the dimensions you desire. I have a tall rig but I wanted a sail made out of Dacron to higher quality thread count to minimize stretch which all Dacron sails are prone in first few years of use especially if used frequently. Mack Sails out of Florida and Quantum out of Annapolis MD sell sails generally made out of a higher grade Challenge sailcloth (High Aspect) but the main thing is that companies such as Quantum will come down to your boat, take dimensions and discuss with you your likes and dislikes and then have the sail designed and cut to your requirements. This obviously does come at a higher cost especially if you go with the higher grade Dacron's that are available (and if you make certain changes in dimensions, it may effect ability to participate in club races, if not you, then possibly to next owner if you sell your boat a few years from now.)

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 09/15/2016 03:49:46

sfsmith
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Response Posted - 09/15/2016 : 06:33:43

I hadn't considered a Capri sail as an option, but it makes sense for what I want. Another option would be to get the tall rig sail but have it made shorter.

I'll follow up on this when I've decided, then again in the spring when I start using the new sail.

Thanks for the great ideas, everybody.

Solomon Smith
TANGO 89/WK/TR/#5942
Petoskey, Michigan

Bladeswell
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Response Posted - 09/15/2016 : 18:30:12

Hello Everyone,

I was very glad to read this post as I have a tall rig and the Admiral and I both want a Bimini in the future. So, one other question. I understand raising the boom while using the Bimini at the slip but when we sail we would like to use the full amount of main. So will the Bimini fold down or collapse out of the way.?

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2016 : 21:13:46

Generally, a bimini will fold forward and can lie on the cabin-top. The base just needs to be wide enough, which suggests mounting outside of the coamings, as I did. Some have mounted theirs on the genoa tracks, using track cars that you can now buy from Catalina Direct. This allows moving the bimini forward and aft to your preference. It does need to be far enough forward for the mainsheet to clear--unless you convert to mid-boom sheeting with a traveler some place like across the seats against the cabin bulkhead--a mod I was seriously considering when we had our C-25.

With the original mainsheet rig, the bimini can or will at least partially cover the companionway, which we appreciated for shade and for shielding from rain, even with the companionway closed up. The aft area of the cockpit wasn't so well shaded, but the coverage was sufficient for the helmsman sitting a few feet forward. It was a nice addition, even up in Connecticut.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/15/2016 21:28:04

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2016 : 21:42:44

One other comment, Guy... Unless you're a serious racer, I can't imagine giving up 1' of luff length, where you still have 2' more luff and mast height than a standard rig (which I had), will disappoint either of you. The primary driving force of the C-25 is the headsail.

My observation was that my SR boom just barely cleared my 5'9" head as we tacked or (maybe unexpectedly) jibed if I was standing, while the TR boom might have clocked me just below the ear, leaving my poor Admiral in charge. We appreciated that extra foot, and never wished we had a tall rig for that reason.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Bladeswell
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Response Posted - 09/16/2016 : 06:51:22

Back again,

No, I'm not a racer and have no interest in racing. Though at some point in the far future I might consider the Newport Ensenada race just to do it. If I read you right, I think you are saying that I won't loose much by sailing with the boom raised to the first reef so that I could leave the bimini up. Being of course that I'm not racing and most of our drive will come from the head sail. And yes, I did see the track slides from CD for the Bimini. Thanks again.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/16/2016 : 07:47:59

Well, when sailing in light air and off the wind, it's all about sail area. That's why sailors use massive symmetrical spinnakers. That's also why non-spin sailors sail wing and wing downwind, with the jib spread out by a long whisker pole. The goal is to capture as much wind as possible. There's no aerodynamic air flow on the sails downwind, so you have to capture as much wind pressure on the sails as possible.

People talk about racers and cruisers as if there's a difference in the way they sail a boat. The only difference is that racers study and practice the art and science of sailing and sail trim to the highest degree. A sailboat responds to good sail trim in the hands of a cruiser as well as a racer. I don't think I've ever met a sailor, either racer or cruiser, who didn't enjoy being able to nurse an extra bit of boat speed out of the boat in light air, or downwind. Nobody likes to bake in the sun while the boat is dead in the water, and nobody like to have to start the motor because they can't keep the boat moving. Sometimes that's your only recourse, but most people prefer to sail as long as they're able.

That extra sail area is not meaningless or insignificant. As other tall rig owners have said, the tall rig helps keep you moving in light air.

You have a right to rig your boat however you wish. My suggestion, FWIW, is that you buy a tall rig mainsail and sail with a single reef tucked in and the boom raised accordingly. That would allow you ample headroom over the cockpit, it would enable you to shake out the reef and use the full mainsail on light air days, and it would avoid the possibility of making your boat hard to market, with a non-standard mainsail.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2016 : 14:01:57

How high is the C-25 TR's first reef? It seems to me it's a lot more than a foot above the boom. One foot leaves 2' additional luff length over the SR and the same sail area and height up high where it counts most in light air. I calculate shortening by 1' gives up 3% of your total TR sail area, all of it down low, with just a 110% jib--2.5% with a 155% genny. No change to the headsail size... No boom trying to knock your head off... Room for a comfortable bimini like we SR sailers have... And if your bottom is clean, you'll probably walk away from that other TR downwind in light air, waving to him from the shade.

FWIW, I sailed on another guy's C-25 SR for about 10 miles reaching in 8-10 kts on the Pacific next to a C-25 TR, both boats tweaking their trim (he more than we), and we stayed dead even. That's different from dead-downwind in 5 kts, but it suggest that with a modest breeze, a C-25 is a C-25, and it's neither a pig nor a rocket, but it responds to good sail trim. Set it up for your wishes--some times you give a little to get a lot.

As for the market, I might not have bought Passage if she was a TR unless she was a TR with a higher boom.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/16/2016 14:10:18

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/16/2016 : 15:52:25

Both the tall rig and standard rig C25 have the same hull. The only fundamental difference is the height of the mast and sail area. The boats' theoretical hull speed is the same. But, a boat with more sail area generates more power from its sails. That's why we use a 150% genny in moderate winds instead of a 110%. We want the sails to generate the most power that the boat is capable of using efficiently. A boat with more sail area can accelerate faster, to a higher speed, than a boat with less sail area. By their nature, sailboats don't generally cruise at the same speed all day. They accelerate on a puff, and when the puff goes away, they decelerate. Notwithstanding anecdotal assertions, a boat that can accelerate faster to a higher speed will always sail farther, faster than a boat that can't, all else being equal. (e.g., clean bottom, crew skills, etc.) Moreover, as boat speed increases, so does a boat's ability to point. The higher a boat can point, the shorter distance it will have to sail, when closehauled, to reach it's destination. For those reasons, a tall rig is inherently faster, on every point of sail, than a standard rig up until the point when the tall rig becomes overpowered, begins to labor and has to reef. At that point, the standard rig boat, with less sail area, won't have to reef yet. Moreover, with it's taller rig and larger sails, the tall rig boat has more weight aloft, and the weight is higher, and at that point, the tall rig becomes a disadvantage.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

sfsmith
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Response Posted - 09/22/2016 : 06:32:46

Update: I decided to order the Ullman Offshore tall rig main from CD and have the foot cut down. It will have a 26-foot luff, rather than the 27.66-foot luff. There's no extra charge for the change of dimension. The reef points will be proportionally higher on the sail, which has a loose foot and full battens. I think this will give me exactly what I want. I'll update this again in the spring/summer when I get to use the sail. Thanks again for the help, all.

Solomon Smith
TANGO 89/WK/TR/#5942
Petoskey, Michigan

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/22/2016 : 19:12:08

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Generally, a bimini will fold forward and can lie on the cabin-top. The base just needs to be wide enough, which suggests mounting outside of the coamings, as I did. Some have mounted theirs on the genoa tracks, using track cars that you can now buy from Catalina Direct. This allows moving the bimini forward and aft to your preference. It does need to be far enough forward for the mainsheet to clear--unless you convert to mid-boom sheeting with a traveler some place like across the seats against the cabin bulkhead--a mod I was seriously considering when we had our C-25.

With the original mainsheet rig, the bimini can or will at least partially cover the companionway, which we appreciated for shade and for shielding from rain, even with the companionway closed up. The aft area of the cockpit wasn't so well shaded, but the coverage was sufficient for the helmsman sitting a few feet forward. It was a nice addition, even up in Connecticut.

Dave,

Do you possibly remember the height of the bimini on your old C25?

My bimini got shredded a while back in a storm and some %$#^ came along and decided to remove 2/3 of the center bow. Neatly placed the screws securing it to the other 1/3 in the cockpit coaming!

Because it was shredded so badly and missing the bow I cannot get an accurate measurement on the height. Your's looks like it was about the same height as mine based on where the booms is.

Looking at the picture it looks like it might be the same brand.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 09/22/2016 19:13:19

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2016 : 09:58:08

Gary, I can't help you--haven't owned the boat since 2006. But Bruce Ross ("Voyager") could measure it. It was custom-made in Canada--don't remember by whom. The frame is stainless and I had two adjustable struts on the back instead of straps, so it could stand up when folded or I could quick-release them to lay the bimini on the cabintop.

I recall purposefully ordering it a little taller than I needed, and then cutting a few inches off the main bow to get just the right height.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/23/2016 : 18:26:02

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Gary, I can't help you--haven't owned the boat since 2006. But Bruce Ross ("Voyager") could measure it. It was custom-made in Canada--don't remember by whom. The frame is stainless and I had two adjustable struts on the back instead of straps, so it could stand up when folded or I could quick-release them to lay the bimini on the cabintop.

I recall purposefully ordering it a little taller than I needed, and then cutting a few inches off the main bow to get just the right height.

Thanks Dave. I was kinda thinking the same thing about ordering a little long. Just not sure where the "ballpark" is. If I had the boom on the boat I could eyeball it.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 09/23/2016 18:26:54

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