Association Forum

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

GPS

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Bladeswell
Captain

Member Avatar

USA
490 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/22/2016 : 10:55:22

Hello Again,

I tried posting this in the cruising section but got nothing so I will try again here. I was wondering what you guys think of hand held GPS vs mounted GPS. I would only need one occasionally for trips to and from Catalina Island. About a 26 mile cruise off shore. Most of the time the island is visible but there will be times when there will be fog and of course night trips. Thanks

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2016 : 12:25:44

Sorry you didn't get a response earlier, Guy.

I have a Garmin 541s chartplotter with 5" screen and a Garmin 78 handheld for a backup.

I certainly like the 541, but the handheld tells you as much as you need to know to sail anywhere within the range of your software charts. I used my handheld to navigate a 40' boat on a 375 nm delivery from near Block Island to the Chesapeake Bay, when the boat's onboard electronics weren't working. It got us there with no problems, sailing night and day. I highly recommend that you also carry paper charts, especially when traveling long distances over open water, so you can see the bigger picture, but it isn't absolutely necessary. I use alkaline batteries in mine, and it does use up batteries, but not at an awful rate. I carry plenty of extras for a longer trip.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2016 : 14:36:59

It might be me but if I were venturing out into the ocean where the risk of encountering fog I would want radar. GPS is great but it doesn't tell you where the big freighters are. I've been in fog with visibility under 20ft. Very scary.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2016 : 17:27:12

Hearing the rumble of a nearby powerful marine engine in the fog is terrifying. There are less expensive alternatives to radar, and perhaps better in some ways. A ship looks like a blob on radar, and you have to learn to interpret the blobs. Is the blob a ship, is it moving, which way is it moving? AIS can be used via a cellphone app. With it, if you see a ship in the area, you can call it by name on the vhf radio and inform it of your gps position. If you have a radar reflector, the ship should be able to see you. It isn't radar, but for a small boat, it's not a bad alternative.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Bladeswell
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2016 : 17:53:16

Hello Again,

Thanks Steve. As it happens, the Garmin 541 is the mounted model I was most interested in. I had not yet determined what hand held unit to look at yet but I will take a good look at the 78. I definitely plan on a radar reflector but not radar itself. While I have heard the term AIS, I don't really know what it is. Thanks again guys.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2016 : 18:16:44

That's the problem with AIS. Large ships have it but many pleasure boats don't. Being run over by a 45ft CrisCraft....Well . Steve, Exactly what happend to me in the fog. I stopped the boat and killed the engine just to listen. Eerie silence then the sound of engines getting louder. 20ft away from me appeared a trawler that past me doing about 12k. Then immediately disappeared in the fog. Nerve-racking and is one of those things I will never forget.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2016 : 21:31:41

20' away at 12 kts in zero visibility? That's close to criminal negligence. He probably couldn't hear a fog signal at cruising speed in the trawler--hopefully he had you on his radar, but course and speed of a radar target is not that easy to determine when your vessel is under way. Personally, without radar, I'd do my best not to be out in soup like that.

Not far from here a few years ago, a USCG tug collided with a ferry in fog... Try to wrap your head around that one!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2016 : 06:55:38

Having AIS is better than nothing but until everyone has it it isn't perfect. Also never depend or assume the other guy is going to do the right thing. If that were the case there wouldn't be any boating accidents. Enough said so back to the question, I have a fixed mount Garmin 545 on a RAM mount. It has a 5" high res. screen that can be seen easily in daylight. I prefer it to a handheld because it doesn't need battery's, Larger screen and there is no chance of it falling overboard. Like nothing's ever fallen overboard

If I were making trips to Catalina Isl. I would have a handheld as a back up. I would also look into getting AIS.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2016 : 07:26:26

quote:
I'd do my best not to be out in soup like that.

Oh Dave I try but sometimes its unexpected. Saturday as an example. Weathermen said no storms or rain until Sunday. We go out with a perfect Easterly wind without gusts. Sailed for about an hour over to Greenwich area then turned around to see nothing but black sky's. You couldn't see LI shoreline at all, Just grey. We sailed around on the Conn. side for 3hrs in the clear waiting for it to pass but it never did. Finally gave up hope of it ever moving so I dropped the main, Reefed the headsail some and put on the raingear then headed for home. We hit the rain halfway across the Sound and boy did it come down. The kind of rain that just flattens the water. Gotta love the weathermen.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2016 : 20:58:09

I usually try to look in all directions all the time when I'm sailing.

If for no other reason than to keep from getting run down by some guy in his 50' cruiser running wide open on the bay while he's checking out the babes in the back (it's happened more than once).

Or the 140 mph Skater offshore catamarans on a poker run running up and down Galveston Bay. Twenty minutes from Kemah to Galveston!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2016 : 22:01:12

quote:
Originally posted by islander

[quote] ...Finally gave up hope of it ever moving so I dropped the main, Reefed the headsail some and put on the raingear then headed for home. We hit the rain halfway across the Sound and boy did it come down. The kind of rain that just flattens the water. Gotta love the weathermen.

I was in Darien that day and evening, with plans to entertain by the shore there... I pointed out to my lady that the radar maps suggested trouble about 6 hours later for L.I. and possibly CT, but probably north of us. Later, we watched from the shore as that played out. Sorry you were in it, but it's part of venturing out in bodies of water where we're more than a couple of hours from home. Imagine being a week or two over the horizon with a major ocean storm brewing! I know people... The stories are gripping!

But that trawler was still seriously misbehaving!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/23/2016 22:05:03

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2016 : 04:12:24

If you sail frequently and over many years, you benefit (if you can call it that) from experiencing days of drama on the high seas. No doubt there are instruments that can assist in avoiding some of the drama but storms, fog, etc still can create havoc.

I recall many years ago, when I lived on Long Island and sailed my ODay 23, my wife and I stayed for an overnighter at the Oyster Bay Sandhole. The next morning, there was fog but it was lifting and so we then set out to take a long tack over to the Connecticut side of Long Island Sound and then another long tack that would put us right into our home dock in Huntington Harbor. But as we were getting closer to the Connecticut side, Connecticut was no longer in view as the fog set in and visibility...well there eventually was practically no visibility ! You could hear in the distance faint sound of fog horns from boats no where near us. So, we started to occasionally blow our fog horn as well as we started our tack back to Long Island. Can't recall but I believe I had my outboard on by this time since the wind had died. This was the one time that I could say the compass was really beneficial. I plotted a course that should put us close to Huntington Harbor but when you cannot see anything, you then find that you have to put a heck of a lot of trust relying on your instruments.

So, the fog was set in thick, the water was sort of becalmed and as a result, my spouse who usually has no problems on the boat was doing some over the boat heaves. After that subsided, the heaves that is, then we heard what sounded like...a muffled train noise ....This was not good ! I started to blow my fog horn more frequently (and always good to have an extra fog horn onboard in case first one is used up). Then we heard it ! A really LOUD horn. Oboy ! Then we knew we were in for it because we were trading horn blows. I figured whatever it was, if my compass was accurate, then we were headed perpendicular/going across the Sound and this behemoth, whatever it was, chances were that it was going parallel to the Sound. Eventually, I then heard a guy yelling "DO YOU SEE US ?" My spouse was petrified. I then saw it ! At first, my mind played tricks on me and I thought maybe it was a large tug boat pushing or pulling a barge and all I could think of was (and this was many years ago) when a celebrity's son was killed in a motorboat when they cut between a tug boat pulling a barge and got hit by the tow cable. So I yelled back "YES - WE SEE YOU AND WE ARE TURNING AWAY". Then I got a better look at what we would have been on a direct intersecting hit with and it was the Port Jefferson Oil Tanker heading east away from NYC and probably going back to Port Jefferson. After awhile, I turned back to my original compass heading and very few faint fog horns could be heard until the fog finally started to lift and there we were just about ready to head into Huntington Harbor. I then became a great believer in the compass ! and so ends just another one of those dramas we all get to tell now and then. I tell it as an exciting story. My spouse tells it differently.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/24/2016 04:16:43

cshaw
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2016 : 09:34:23

Hi Bladeswell!

IMHO, a handheld with even just the default marine charts will provide you with enough information to do what you need to do. The water is deep that you sail in, but there ARE shipping lanes to cross, and its good to know if you are in or near them.... A case in point:

After a fun race from Santa Barbara down to King Harbor (and a fun party afterwards!!!) we were powering Confetti north back to Ventura. The fog was incredibly thick, which is certainly not unusual for those waters. This was before the days of GPS's being common equipment.... It was totally calm with no seas running at all. Very erie and beautiful all in one.... I had hoisted my tri-corner radar reflector as high as I could get it, and simply navigated along a bottom contour using the depth finder, and kept a deck log for speed and heading to do a little dead reckoning. The contour line I would select (I can't remember the depth) was deep enough to keep we well off the beach, but also well east of the shipping lanes that go north along the west coast.

there were 3 of us aboard, and my 9.9 electric start long shaft Johnson was busy turning fuel into boat speed going north. We normally kept two of us in the cockpit, to trade the monotonous helm chore (we had no autopilot). The 3rd was napping below...

Even though the 2 cycle outboard was making a pretty good noise, we started hearing the very deep "thump...Thump...THUMP!" sound a big ship's propeller makes. You can hear that a LONG way away when you are in the fog and calm, even over the sound of the outboard, so were not worried. Even so, we altered course to the east to get even more eastward of the shipping channel lines on the chart. However, the sound kept getting louder.....

Its hard to tell which direction it was coming from, but we knew it had to be north or south. The southbound lanes were much further to the west, so we assumed it was a north bound vessel. So we kept the closest watch towards the south and south west of us. We were right!

Before too long, and as the thumping got really loud, the fog had a dark area start to form amongst the swirls, immediately aft of us!!!! And it was huge and coming right up our wake!

A 90 deg turn to Starboard, and twisting the throttle wide open were done immediately!!!!

The ship passed about 15 boat lengths astern of us!! We looked UP at it and saw the name... the "World Eulogy"... (I will ALWAYS remember that name!!!) We tried to hail her on the VHF, but no reply. After she passed and disappeared back into the fog, and the thumping started growing weaker, we came left back to northerly course, and I noted the depth and time. I was worried we were actually in the shipping channel, but as it turned out, the depth showed the ship had been almost 1.5 miles to the east of the channel (the water was well over 200 ft deep however). In deep water, I guess they thought the shipping channel lines on the chart were just a "suggestion"???

Even using a GPS (handheld or fixed) to keep us out of the channels would not have helped us. Nothing replaces keeping a sharp lookout in low visibility!!!

I ended up eventually buying a Garmin 276cPlus Chart plotter a few years later, since we were in Texas by then and sailing on the then unfamiliar waters of Galveston Bay and along the Texas coast. I still use it here in Florida, and its handy when racing. I also have the Garmin depth sounder interface box for it, so its nice to have everything on one screen. I also use it in the truck with highway charts, and use it hiking using TOPO charts....

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2016 : 05:58:49

Chuck, I wonder whether that ship had a electronics problem and chose to get out of the shipping lane to avoid hitting anything much bigger than you.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2016 : 19:46:57

quote:
Originally posted by cshaw

Hi Bladeswell!

... The ship passed about 15 boat lengths astern of us!! We looked UP at it and saw the name... the "World Eulogy"... (I will ALWAYS remember that name!!!) We tried to hail her on the VHF, but no reply. After she passed and disappeared back into the fog, and the thumping started growing weaker, we came left back to northerly course, and I noted the depth and time...

Must have been salvaged by this time...

WORLD EULOGY - Chemical/Oil Products Tanker
WORLD EULOGY - IMO 6407963 - Details and current position
VESSELS TANKERS WORLD EULOGY
WORLD EULOGY Upload photo
Vessel WORLD EULOGY (IMO: 6407963, MMSI: Unknown) is a chemical/oil products tanker built in 1964 and currently sailing under the flag of Liberia. Her gross tonnage is 35592 tons. Below you can find more technical information, photos, AIS data and last 5 port calls of WORLD EULOGY detected by AIS.

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/WORLD-EULOGY-IMO-6407963

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 08/25/2016 19:48:18

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2016 : 20:47:47

Typical of Liberian-registered ships... No MMSI, maybe no AIS, no adherence to international regulations--just a hold full of oil from someplace where it shouldn't be coming from. She'll probably end her life on a charted reef, dumping that oil.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

cshaw
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2016 : 05:51:42

Good comments and info Dave and Gary! The encounter with the WE happened back around 1978 or 79. Not sure anyone was using AIS back then. I would like to think maybe Dave's suggestion was right that she was staying away from the southbound lane to decrease risk of a headon, but my reaction was not that "kind" to her crew at that time!! I do remember looking up at her bow and her bridge to see if she had any little sailboat icons painted in a nice little row.... Didn't see any however, and we were sure close enough to get a good look!

Steve mentioned an app to view AIS data.... That seems to work really well! We don't get off shore very often any more here in Florida, but the occasional club cruise south usually has an offshore leg weather permitting, and the rest is on the ICW in the Indian River Lagoon or coming back south from Ponce Inlet near Daytona Beach. I will have to remember to use the app more!!

Not sure what the working life is for a ship like the WE? But 52 years seems old enough she was probably scrapped. Makes me smile that Confetti has outlasted her (OK Confetti is only 40 years old, so I won't gloat for another 12 years.....if I am still around!!)

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2016 : 06:57:33

Not many 25' boats have radar, so you have to use all the assets that you do have, including a horn, the vhf radio, a radar reflector, all your senses, and good judgment. Don't be shy about hailing a commercial vessel on vhf channel 13 to make it aware of your presence and location. In that situation, they want to know where you are, and appreciate the call. We contacted a ship at night, while we were passing through the Delaware Bay just outside the shipping channel, and he alerted other commercial vessels to our location and heading. Some commercial vessels are not so accommodating, but some are.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.