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What wind speed is considered safe

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JanS48
Navigator

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USA
141 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/11/2016 : 18:57:19

Greetings all
Well, I'm still getting used to my C25, last weekend a friend an I went out for a sail with the wind blowing at 18k with gusts. I gotta say with the boat healed over quite a bit most of the time I was not always comfortable and while going downwind I did mostly broad reaches to avoid a potential a gybe. I did see 6k on the Ray marine gps a few times which was nice.

So what wind speed is considered safe for a C25 STD FK, 125 Jenny?

Thanks
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 21:28:08

I cruised our C25 wing keel in 35 mph to 40 gusts reefed and 90% rolled jib and felt safe. I have rigged the boat with everything to the cockpit and the rig well tuned with very little weather helm, and the boat is very seaworthy. Weather prediction for the day was 10-15 mph. I didn't struggle with the helm or boat, but after 5 hrs of concentrating on the erratic wave patterns and sundown upon us, I opted for anchoring as I'm no spring chicken anymore. Rock and rolled all night and hubby slept on the salon floor and I was wedged in v-berth. Next day was half the wind and a piece of cake with normal wave patterns. So I would say it depends mostly on the skill level of the skipper and good rigging for bad weather how much wind both can take.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 21:36:55

The determiner of safety isn't so much wind speed as it is your seamanship skills. Do you know how to rig for heavy weather, and are you familiar with storm sailing tactics? Those are the real issues. Any wind that is beyond your ability to control the boat on all points of sail is unsafe.

Moreover, it isn't high winds that endanger a small boat. Big, steep, breaking waves are the real danger. 50 kt winds on a small inland lake might not produce very big waves, but on the Chesapeake Bay 50 kt winds can produce survival conditions. Thus, some sailing venues are more dangerous than others in high winds.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 21:53:41

All depends.

But seriously 18 kts is a very powerful breeze. Especially if the wind direction allows for a long fetch over water (creating large breaking waves) and if it pipes up in gusts to 25 kts. They can catch you off guard.
It's best to shorten sail by taking one or two reefs in your main and reducing headsail by using a storm jib or furling your furled headsail most of the way.
Spilling wind by easing the main on a beam reach or close reach will allow you to better control heel.
In my case I went out two weeks ago in 15-20 SE winds. In Long Island sound this equals big short chop and breakers. I was reefed before I went out but I got bounced big-time by broaching waves on my beam. Exhilarating but you have to be mindful because things can go wrong in the blink of an eye.
You could foul your sheets and be unable to ease your sails. You could lose your furler and put out the entire 135 Genoa. You could lose a rudder pintle or snap your tiller and you'd be up short's creek in a hurry. If your engine decided to give up the ghost you'd be at a complete disadvantage in a lee shore situation.
So like I said, it depends.
I enjoy the challenge but optimum wind speed for our boats is between 8-12 kt steady breeze. 5-15 with 20 kt gusts is challenging. Steady breeze above 15 kts is very challenging and you need every ounce of your wits and your boat working at 100% to deal, but even so accidents will happen...
Some very experienced racers and cruisers will say that you're not living unless breezes exceed 15, but I'd say that's bravado. The power of the wind is proportional to the square of the wind speed so Force 4 is 2X the power of Force 4 and Force 5 is ~4-5X
As one of our members says "we cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails" is right on. Takes experience and time on the water. No amount of reading books or forum entries will give you that.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

jfilion
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 05:55:56

If we are being honest anything over 16 knots and I pull down both sails and motor.

I don't enjoy the stress of being on the edge of disaster with every gust, lol.

Even with my sails furled and reefed in all the way I can't point my boat to make progress.

But then again I am a novice.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 06:32:26

quote:
Originally posted by jfilion

If we are being honest anything over 16 knots and I pull down both sails and motor.

I don't enjoy the stress of being on the edge of disaster with every gust, lol.

Even with my sails furled and reefed in all the way I can't point my boat to make progress.

But then again I am a novice.

16 kts is challenging for a novice, and it's smart to sail within your own limitations, but sailing in 16 kts, and much more, is exhilarating if you have the skill to do it. You can learn by taking courses, but you can also learn by asking other sailors how they rig the boat for strong winds, and how they trim their sails, and by sailing with others and watching how they do it. Expanding your skills builds your self confidence, reduces your fear, and lets you go out and play when you would otherwise choose to sit at the dock wishing you could be sailing. Every one of us has been where you are now.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 06:52:12

Some people like to test themselves, to stretch, to go out on the edge... I'm not really one of them--at least not any more. Give me 8-12... Above about 16 knots, actual or forecast, I'll relax at the marina.

That said, I learned early on (our "delivery cruise") that our "new" (15-yr-old) C-25 could take more than I wanted to! And I had learned on unballasted centerboarders how to deal with 20+ winds and big chop, so the C-25 FK felt almost indomitable.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/12/2016 06:52:47

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 06:55:57

Simply reduce the sail area as much as you feel safe. If not, pack the sails and enjoy motoring :-)

This summer we were in Adriatic sea when the storm hit. Wind around 25 kts with gusts up to 47 knots (measured by my screaming wife holding the anemometer ... still not sure why she tried to measure it when she was scared

) straight to the beam. It was not pleasant for me either. No sails whatsoever, but boat healed only a little. I was just glad I had 8HP outboard. The only problem was the responsibility for our two sleeping kids (6 and 4) in the boat.

We motored around an hour in that conditions sailing back to the harbour. At the end I'm glad for that experience. I know where is the limits of me and the boat.

Dalpol Phobos 21, 2013, Sole Mio, hull #27, current adventures - We sail Phobos 21

PO of Catalina C25, 1978, High Anxiety, hull #701, SR, FK, L-dinette, inboard diesel Volvo Penta MD2010C w/saildrive - more info

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 07:25:02

Clint Eastwood said it well...

https://youtu.be/_VrFV5r8cs0

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 15:19:01

I like 10-15, but I'm rolling up some genoa by 15. I'm fairly comfortable at 20, but I don't look for it. Shortened sail at 25 is just to much work and concentration, but motoring with a little bit of sail up is more stable than bare pole.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

tpothen
Deckhand

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17 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 16:34:08

I use the full main and 155 genny up to 15 knots and reduce accordingly in higher winds. Anything over 25 and it gets to be a wild ride. I'm on a good size lake, 20 miles long by 15 miles wide and have seen waves up to about 5 feet.

"Myasis Dragon" 77' C25/SR/SK/Din.
www.svmyasisdragon.com

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 16:39:10

with tall rig and 135 genny, full to 15 knots. roll up some headsail, and first reef on mainsail at about 20. 25 -27 second reef and roll up more headsail. only gone out in about 30. ive done that with double reefed main only. doesnt sail well, but will move. I'd imagine you only have one reef on your standard rig.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Good Times
1st Mate

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45 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 17:37:48

I would not call it 'safe sailing' by any stretch, but my TR wing keel boat did not take on water in 70 mph plus sustained winds during the infamous Dauphin Island race last year and brought us home safely; with a double reefed main only, hatches and lockers closed.
I think it is close to a factor of two, between 'safe wind' in which you would consider leaving the dock (and be comfortable) and 'wind' that you get caught in while underway and the boat-if managed properly- is able to bring you back safely(albeit not comfortable)
In short: The limiting factor is usually the skill or comfort level of the skipper rather than the boat;

It has been said already, that the interaction between wind and water and the resulting wave pattern (or lack thereof..) is more important boat handling and comfort than wind speed alone.
I concur with Todd's numbers re reefing a TR, but would like to add that they are in line for sails in good or better shape; if yours are stretched and baggy reef sooner.
Enjoy the boat.

Andy Kohler

Andy Kohler

C25 #6012 TR WK
traditional layout

16ft Hobie Cat
23.5 Hunter

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2016 : 09:51:14

In Andy's case it's good to know our boats can take a lot of punishment and get us through (most of the time). The odds are with us but occasionally things go afoul in rough conditions. That's what seastories are made of...
I also think of it a bit differently.
If I'm on a three-day passage and strong winds are forecast where I'll be in the thick of it for 8, 10, 12 hours, this is when fatigue becomes a factor and judgment begins to wane. That's the enemy. In this case I'll make it a four- or five-day passage and wait it out.
If it's a crazy day out on the water with 3 ft breakers and 20kt gusts and if I feel like taking a two-hour roller coaster ride, well that's an entirely different story! Go fer it dude!!! Just make sure everything is secure and set up before you go out.
This is excellent training and toughening for those times you do find yourself in quickly deteriorating conditions far from your homeport, or any port, for that matter.
You can deal with anything for short periods, especially if you're prepared and you know what you're bargaining for.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

capted
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2016 : 11:17:49

Most of my sailing on the south shore of Long Island is done with a sea breeze which will be 15 knots with gusts to 20 in the afternoon. In days past I have been out in 25 kts with gusts to 30. As others have said, the first step is to reef and do it early. I use a 150 furling genoa which I start to reef at 15 knots. At the 30 knot point, I was using only the reefed main.
But with reefed sails you should be able able to handle 18 knots OK. One thing others have not mentioned is that the Catalina will not capsize in any reasonable condition. If you press the boat with too much sail, it will heel to a certain point, then the rudder will lose control and the boat will head up into the wind and come upright. So a sudden gust may be exciting but not really dangerous. If you're out and the wind picks up so you're heeling too much, try easing the main out. This will reduce the heeling. It's easy for me to furl the genoa, and more trouble to reef the main, so if I'm concerned I'll reef the main before I go out.
My 30 knot experience has given me confidence in the boat- it won't capsize and won't take large amounts of water into the cockpit, even with the rail under water.
Gear failure is a different problem. I've had some exciting times when things broke, and it is more exciting if the wind is blowing hard. My lesson for most of these incidents is to always check the rig before going out, including lines, fittings and cotter pins. Attention to detail may avoid a serious problem.
Ed

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2016 : 14:04:54

On the north shore of Long Island Sound, when we occasionally had off-shore winds that made for relatively flat water but could be blustery and gusty (15-25), we often just pulled out the roller 130 genny and left the sail cover on the main. The genny has a much lower center of effort, so when used alone, it causes much less heeling, even in powerful gusts, and is the primary driver of the C-25. Fully deployed, it gave us a basically neutral helm (not my favorite, but not bad); the more it was rolled up, the more it tended toward lee helm. But used alone, we didn't really need to reduce it for gusts well into the 20s and maybe over 30. We couldn't sail quite as high, but we weren't trying to go anywhere in particular, broad-reaching out toward Long Island and then close-reaching back to CT.

"Pull one string and you're sailing; pull the other and your done."

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2016 : 14:31:27

JanS I remember my C22 mentor telling me a boat is like a Clorox bottle. Close her up and as long as she doesn't hit any thing blunt or sharp, she can survive a hurricane. Never leave port if you think your motor will save you. From then on whenever I felt when the conditions were getting too much for me, secure everything below and lock in the hatches and tie myself to the boat and look for anchorage. I've been in that situation more than once. all my sailing is coastal or inland, so I never had to tie off the tiller and go below.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2016 : 15:04:28

We were racing one day in 15-20mph with a full 155% and full main when a front came down the lake packing 35mph with gusts to 50! It was too dangerous to send the foredeck guy to pull down the genoa so we rode it out by feathering up to the wind. Fortunately we only had 100 yards to the finish line, but it was a wild 100 yards! We motored back to the marina and with the engine (8hp) at full throttle we made 1k.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2016 : 18:25:47

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager
Just make sure everything is secure and set up before you go out.

I suggest triple redundancy for securing the porta-pottie.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2016 : 03:54:48

quote:
Originally posted by Good Times

my TR wing keel boat did not take on water in 70 mph plus sustained winds during the infamous Dauphin Island race last year

weren't we looking for a report from a cat 25 at dauphin island last year? Good to have an idea of what the boat can do. It seem to be able to stand up to a lot with just a double reefed main up.

EDIT: And I see that Andy posted back then.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Edited by - dasreboot on 08/15/2016 03:57:59

JB
Navigator

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USA
110 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2016 : 07:33:46

I'm a pleasure sailor not a racer. At 18 kts I would have the main reefed and probably not even put it up at all. If the main is up and you're going down wind it's reasonable to go a little more broad to avoid an accidental gybe. It doesn't take much for a wave or gust to flip the boom and I've seen travelers and booms break when that happens.

1988 C25 Wing Keel Std Rig Tohatsu 9.9 Tiller Steering and 2003 C250 Wing Keel Std Rig Inboard Diesel Wheel Steering

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2016 : 08:24:07

Most of us, including the so-called brave and the less brave, don't knowingly sail into bad weather conditions, but on a long passage, or a long race, or even a daysail, sometimes you just get caught out in it. When that happens, everyone should know how to cope with it.

The first question is, what direction do you want to go to find shelter? Don't even try to get back to your marina if you have a nearer alternative, such as the lee of an island or in the lee of the mouth of a river.

Secondly, do you need to sail to windward, or downwind, or do you even need to sail at all? If you must sail to windward, you at least need the mainsail, and a little jib helps. Unintentional gybes are not a concern when sailing to windward. When sailing shorthanded, I always take a double reef right away. By doing so, I won't have to reef a second time if it gets worse. With a double reef, I'll be ready for almost anything.

If sailing downwind, either a mainsail or jib will work, until such time as they drive the boat too fast, which will present a danger of either a broach or a pitchpole. If that's the case, then you first need to start the motor, then take down the sails and probably run downwind to the nearest shelter at nearly full throttle. If you try to turn up into the wind in those conditions, there's a risk that a big wave will roll you over while you're abeam to it. When sailing downwind in these conditions, I generally don't let the mainsheet out far. If it gybes unintentionally, it won't do so with the speed and violence that it will if the mainsheet is out all the way, especially if you have double-reefed the mainsail. Reducing the sail area reduces the force of a gybe.

If you can get the boat into the lee of land, you'll be astonished at how quickly the wind, waves and danger will dissipate. Then you can either anchor, or proceed, staying in the lee.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/15/2016 08:29:56

Captain Max
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2016 : 17:12:20

I believe Catalina recommends reefing the main over 15 kts. Furling takes a lot of anxiety out of sailing as you simple roll it in from the cockpit. I feel I can go out in 30kts, but I don't particularly want to, a Cat 25 gets knocked around a lot over 20.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.