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Tacking Angles

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Captain Max
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/10/2016 : 12:55:34

Trying to get my tacking angles better. Right now doing about a 100 degree swing on my Catalina 25 fk, 150 jib. Like to hear what the max tacking angle you can get on 25 and the reason. Realize that can vary with conditions.
Thanks.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

Edited by - Captain Max on 08/10/2016 12:58:00

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2016 : 13:37:20

100 deg. tacking angle is actually rather good. You always lose speed when you tack, and pointing ability declines with a decline in boat speed. You should bear off slightly on the new tack, to accelerate back up to speed, and that widens your tacking angle. As boat speed increases after the tack, your pointing ability will increase, and the end result should be that you should be able to point at about a 90 deg angle to your previous heading. Of course, that might not always be measurable with accuracy, because sometimes the wind direction shifts after you tacked.

If your tacking angle is 100 deg, then it sounds like your tacks are well coordinated.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Captain Max
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2016 : 15:23:39

Well, thats the problem. Don't ever get close to 90. I'm thinking I need to ckeck my mast rake.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2016 : 16:24:35

Wind speed is a huge factor. If the wind is strong you will be able to noticeably sail closer to the wind while still maintaining good speed thus your tack angles will be less. As the wind lightens your angle will widen and the further. Off the wind you have to sail to maintain good speed.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Captain Max
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2016 : 16:57:09

That's all true. Let me reword my question. What is the highest pointing someone has done on regular basis and what made the difference.
Thanks again.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 04:11:27

quote:
Originally posted by Captain Max

That's all true. Let me reword my question. What is the highest pointing someone has done on regular basis and what made the difference.
Thanks again.

Hi Capt Max!
In 8-10 with smooth water and a clean bottom with a 155 and main I can tack Confetti through about 88 degrees quite often and 90 -92 deg most of the time. Things I pay attention to: clear air, halyard tension on main and jib, sheeting angle (I use inboard tracks), jib lead position, main out haul tension, traveller position, crew weight location, angle of heel, rig tension (shrouds and stays), mast rake, telltales on main and jib. It's not magic, it's attention to details......

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Captain Max
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 04:34:56

Chuck, thanks so much! That's exactly what I was looking for. Realize there are a ton of variables here, but that puts me in the ball park of what I want to do.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

Captain Max
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 04:36:13

The inboard track is something I may look into.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 05:30:54

quote:
Originally posted by Captain Max

The inboard track is something I may look into.

Forgot to mention, if you use your compass to measure your tacking angle, that can give you an "optimistic" angle, since the compass will not show your leeway. I use my GPS "track" angle difference between tacks.

One of the more subtle things to pay attention to is heel angle. I try to maintain about 8-10 deg so the forward lines of the hull help to counter leeway, since pointing high in lighter air can result in more leeway than you want. Trim to keep a little weather helm, but very little since it can result in rudder drag, which slows your speed and that results in leeway. Everything effects something else!

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 06:46:55

Most conventional sailboats can only sail efficiently at about a 45 deg angle to the wind. You can pinch a bit and sail a wee bit higher briefly, or you can foot off and increase speed, but the boat is inherently limited to about 45 deg, give or take a deg or two, as Chuck rightly observes.

While it's interesting to express it in terms of specific degrees, it seems to me that what really matters is how the boat performs in relation to other boats that are similarly limited. I raced my C25 TR/FK for two years with a 13 boat J24 fleet, and found that it could point and foot with the Js to windward, and was commonly the 2nd or 3rd boat to round the windward mark. At that time, I raced with white sails, and on the downwind leg the Js with their spinnakers usually beat me to the finish line. I could rarely beat the fleet, but it was fun trying.

My boat didn't have the inboard track. When sailing closehauled, I generally trimmed my North racing 155 to within about 4-5 " of the spreaders. As I recall, the foot of the sail was almost touching the shrouds. You could trim the 155 closer than that to the spreader, but flattening the sail any more than that had the effect of depowering it, and slowing the boat. In ordinary 10 kt winds, the sail was most powerful at about 4-5" off the spreader. I generally trimmed the 110 to within about 1/2" of the spreaders.

I raced against C25s with the inboard track, and didn't think they added anything significant, because moving the genoa track inboard didn't change the basic geometry of the boat. With either track placement, the length of the spreaders still limited how close inboard you could trim the leech of the sail, and the location of the shrouds still limited how close inboard you could trim the foot of the sail.

You might be able to get around that limitation slightly if you had a flatter sail made that could be trimmed slightly more inboard, but for off-the-shelf racing sails, I think you're stuck with that limitation.

The key to pointing is boat speed, boat speed, boat speed. The expression used often by the experts is "foot to point." Theres a good article on the subject in "Sailing World." It says, in part: "Trying to pinch to maintain height can be the crux of the problem. The old adage, "foot, then point," says a lot. A boat needs to go fast before the underwater foils can develop enough lift to hold their position in the water. To regain pointing ability, ease the sails out, bear off slightly, and get back up to speed. Once up to top speed, re-trim to your starting point trim and reevaluate your pointing problem. If the problem persists, check your sail trim." The complete article is at this link, and is a worthwhile read. http://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/how-to-point-foot-and-shift-gears

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Captain Max
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 06:53:57

Thanks Steve.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

Captain Max
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 07:03:57

One question, where do you have your cars exactly for your jib? I'm bringing them forward in light wind, etc.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 08:47:09

quote:
Originally posted by Captain Max

One question, where do you have your cars exactly for your jib? I'm bringing them forward in light wind, etc.

That's correct. Generally, the starting point is to set the genoa cars so that an imaginary line from the clew of the genoa bisects the luff of the sail. From that starting point, you make adjustments to optimize the sail's power for the wind speed. In lighter air, you move the cars forward, to make the sail more full and increase the sail's power. With the genoa cars forward, the boat won't point quite as high, but you'll benefit more by the increased boat speed in light air than you'll lose in pointing ability. In stronger winds, you move the cars aft, to flatten the sail and de-power it. Moving the cars aft will increase the boat's pointing ability while decreasing it's power, which is exactly what you want to do in strong winds to keep the boat on its feet.

Beyond these general principles, I don't know of any guidelines on when and how much to move the cars forward or aft. It depends on the boat and the conditions. It has to be learned by trial and error. Try different settings and find out what works. If you get the adjustments anywhere close to ideal, you'll probably be better trimmed than most.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Sailynn
Navigator

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178 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2016 : 21:55:05

ok only raced a C25 once and it wasn't my boat. But have raced C22 for over 30 years and trophied in Nationals. One thing serious C22 racers do is remove their lifelines and add inside tracks. In the comments above nothing was mentioned about lifelines when racing. I know the question was about min. tacking degrees which correlates to pointing ability, which can be related to sail adjustments against a lifeline. When we switched back to C25 cruising I noticed the difference in trimming the sails with a lifelines in play. As others have said I would be happy with 95% angle.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3367 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 04:01:12

I only go by my Windex (top of the mast wind indicator) that has the angles set at 45 degrees) and I can from viewing it tack at the 45 degree angle or just a smidgeon greater than that.

My thought, which Steve expressed earlier, the most efficient angle you can tack is best gaged against other sailboats.

My own thinking on this when I first purchased my boat was that I could not as efficiently head as close a tack to the wind as other boats mainly because my boat came with the original sails and they were definitely stretched/blown out. That first year I owned the boat, I replaced the sails with Quantum sails and I then was able to sail as close to and usually closer to the wind relative to other sailboats. It is hard to believe but my sails are now over 10 years old and since I sail frequently and have encountered a few upset stormy wind conditions during that time, I can tell that my main is slightly stretched. I credit that it has held up so well thru the years because it was made with a higher thread count Dacron Challenge sailcloth (2nd highest quality out of the 4 -5 grades of Dacron cloth available) vs what is normally supplied by those buying off the shelf sails. I need to bring my sails in for an evaluation and see what it costs to get them back in tip top condition or consider buying new sails.

I do not race, so one would say it is not critical for those that do not race to be able to get the most efficient tacks (ie. 45 degrees), however:
1) You know what they say, if you are the only sailboat out there, then you are day sailing but as soon as another sailboat appears then you are racing.
2) Those on a river, especially if narrow or where a coastal tide makes for sometimes tacking strictly in the channel, being able to tack close to the wind is important. On the Potomac River where I am, I sometimes have to tack along the DC side of the river in the channel to go upstream or downstream, then factor in a .5 - 1kt current (effects of coastal tide) and if winds are sort of light, may not even be able to tack up or down the channel if you cannot tack close to the wind.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/12/2016 04:03:32

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2016 : 06:15:17

quote:
Originally posted by Sailynn

In the comments above nothing was mentioned about lifelines when racing.

The only real problem that lifelines and stanchions cause for racers is that the skirt of a deck sweeping racing jib has to be lifted over the lifelines each time you tack to a closehauled course. It's less of a problem on a big boat, because you simply assign the foredeck person to attend to it with each tack. On a small boat, however, you don't usually keep crew on the foredeck, so there's nobody in a convenient position to do it. As I recall, I usually used to be able to do it on my C25 by reaching forward from the cockpit and grasping the jib sheet and lifting the foot of the sail over the lifelines. I raced my C25 with lifelines for almost 25 years and considered it a very minor nuisance.

I'm currently racing a Cal 25, and they have all removed their lifelines and stanchions. Mine was well rigged to race, but, when I bought it, it had stanchions with (believe it or not) bungee cord run through them. I have no idea what the PO had in mind when he did that, but I removed them all. I hate racing without lifelines, and I hate it when one of my crew has to go to the foredeck to rig, hoist or gybe a spinnaker in heavily choppy waters, but nobody has fallen off my boat yet (knock wood). That's partly because I don't fly the chute downwind in really rough conditions with strong winds. IMO, the boat is as fast downwind under jib and mainsail in strong winds. In those conditions it's easy to broach under spinnaker, it's hard to steer a small boat accurately, and it's easy to gybe unintentionally. A spinnaker generates so much power that it's very difficult to control it.

Also, I don't allow anyone to leave the cockpit without a pfd, except in the most benign conditions. In winter frostbite racing, the Cal class races non-spin and the local rules prohibit any crew from leaving the cockpit during a race.

My bottom line on no lifelines? You do what you have to do to be safe and competitive, in that order of importance. Ordinarily, falling off a small sailboat in the daytime, in the summer, while wearing a pfd isn't the most dangerous thing in the world. With the aid of a pfd, he can float until you can return to pick him up. You'll lose a race, but you won't lose a crew.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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