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Using the A-frame

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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/13/2016 : 20:20:31

Hello Again,

I am hoping Davy J will see this but of course I am always grateful for all of your input. I have used my A-frame twice now, once to raise the mast and once to bring it back down. While it worked for the most part, both times had some scary moments. And of course I was working alone. Both times, as the mast gets near about 45 degrees it begins leaning hard to port or starboard. I am not in the water, I am working on the hard. Am I missing something ? Watching Davies video, it seems to come down and go up dead center all the way. I've had to stop in the middle of the process to man handle the mast back to center. I look forward to your opinions. Thanks again.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2016 : 20:58:46

In Calm conditions and the boat level, the only time I do this alone, it should come down without much sway unless you have something dragging it over. I still prefer to tie small lines to the upper shrouds and grab somebody nearby to put a little tension on them for that lower 45 degrees. I don't lead a line back to a winch because that requires me to sit on one side and make the boat heel a bit and the mast to drift. I sit at the bow and just haul it up with the Mainsheet. I never rarely it alone because I lower it onto a roller on the end of a 2x4x8' upright. It takes very little tension on the shrouds to manage the mast. When I occasionally raise or lower on the hard, I manage the shroud lines and raise or lower with a remote controlled electric trailer winch.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 05/13/2016 21:00:43

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2016 : 21:19:11

Thanks Davy,

So from now on, I will use stabilising lines on the shrouds. And I have determined that I won't be trying this alone any more. And yes, I did run the line from the bow to my sheet winch. Is it easier from the bow with the main sheet blocks ? I can't begin to express my level of apprehension as I watched the mast drifting out to the side. All while trying to manage the sheet line at the same time. Scary. Thanks again.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2016 : 04:25:32

I incorporated a couple of "tangs" on my a-frame. The forward lower shrouds get connected to them after removal from the chainplate. This keeps the mast from swaying. Since I lowered, then raised the mast while underway, I needed to make sure it couldn't sway. Here are a few photos:

Here is video shot with a GoPro. You can see the mast sway to port, but it can only go about five degrees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwrmxKPdaY4

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2016 : 05:46:52

I have lowered and raised mine several times by my self when I kept it on the trailer and so far without an issue. I always park into the wind on level ground which takes out some of the problem. The problem I occasionally have are the shrouds catching on something while going up. That said there is a part of the operation where the side sway gets iffy.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2016 : 06:58:25

Hello Again,

I copied your A-frame design Davy. Including the tangs. I bought two different lengths of tangs not knowing which would be right. The longer tangs (which I tried) are about 8 inches long. The shorter set are about 6 inches long. So maybe I should have tried the shorter ones first and I assume I need to have them adjusted just snug enough to allow the mast to move. Thanks again for your help.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2016 : 12:38:05

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

I incorporated a couple of "tangs" on my a-frame. The forward lower shrouds get connected to them after removal from the chainplate. This keeps the mast from swaying. Since I lowered, then raised the mast while underway, I needed to make sure it couldn't sway. Here are a few photos:

Here is video shot with a GoPro. You can see the mast sway to port, but it can only go about five degrees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwrmxKPdaY4

That video is fabulous! I like that you make sure your beers are handy, because you make it look like a dawdle. I'm glad I don't have to do this at my marina, but if I did, you can be sure I'd be reviewing how you do it. Well done!

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 05:13:58

I had to dig up this thread on the topic since I no longer have my C25. The tangs on my a-frame had holes that were 5" apart according to the measurement I took at the time. Here is that thread:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=19310

When using the forward lower shrouds on the tangs, the shrouds will be loose at the start, they should tighten up as the mast is lowered and will be taught at about the half way point. Then they will become loose again as the mast comes all the way down. The length of the tang is critical. Because too loose, like your case, the mast has room to move. Too short and the shrouds will get too tight at the half way point.

Also, in that thread I point out that my shrouds are loosened, specifically, 5 turns on the upper shrouds and ten turns on the forward lower shrouds. If the shrouds are not loosened to that length the tangs will need to be a different measurement.

I think if you reconfigure those parts you will see that the mast should stay in control.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Bladeswell
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2016 : 08:23:19

Thanks Davy,

I will check the hole lenght on the tangs and if they aren't 5" I will make new ones. I will also follow your 5 & 10 turns routine for the shrouds and stays. I appreciate your help. Thanks again.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Digger
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2016 : 02:12:19

I needed to lower my mast and didn;t know how to do it. After asking Google for help the wonderful videos showed up and taught me how to do it. I didn't get it all quite right the first time and had the opportunity to get on the learning curve. THANKS FOR THE VIDEO! I even liked the music.

Steve Digby
1983 Catalina 25
Standard Rig
Fin Keel

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2016 : 20:15:40

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

I had to dig up this thread on the topic since I no longer have my C25. The tangs on my a-frame had holes that were 5" apart according to the measurement I took at the time. Here is that thread:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=19310

When using the forward lower shrouds on the tangs, the shrouds will be loose at the start, they should tighten up as the mast is lowered and will be taught at about the half way point. Then they will become loose again as the mast comes all the way down. The length of the tang is critical. Because too loose, like your case, the mast has room to move. Too short and the shrouds will get too tight at the half way point.

Also, in that thread I point out that my shrouds are loosened, specifically, 5 turns on the upper shrouds and ten turns on the forward lower shrouds. If the shrouds are not loosened to that length the tangs will need to be a different measurement.

I think if you reconfigure those parts you will see that the mast should stay in control.

I built mine just like Davy's and I've raised and lowered mine twice by myself with no problems.

I used the starbard winch on the cabin top and once the mast comes over the "hump" and starts down I drop it quickly into the roller on the mast crutch at the stern. The quicker you get it down the less time for the wind to move it.

Once the mast starts down I'd estimate I have it down and in the mast crutch in 15 - 20 seconds (no more than 30) maintaining control of the speed with the winch and control of the mast with my left hand. It also helps to have the mast crutch up 6 - 8 feet. Once it's in the crutch you can take your time and ease the crutch down to where you want the mast to rest.

Going up takes somewhat longer and is a little scarier but using the winch you can stop at any point and make adjustments so you can untangle a shroud or adjust a turnbuckle to keep from bending it.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 06/14/2016 20:20:43

jmczzz
1st Mate

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USA
92 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2016 : 05:16:35

Some pictures of how I rig up temporary stays to steady mast.
1/4 " line with SS ring tied in a loop between front stay chain plate and lower shroud turnbuckle. Tie so ring is even with mast step when held up tight. rig same on both sides of mast.
line from ring tied around mast about head high with one of the halyards connected to them and pulled tight.

In operation the rings slide on looped line as mast moves up or down, halyard keeps temporary stays tight preventing side ways movement of mast.

copy if you like, ask questions but please i do not debate personal preferences.
thanks jmc

1978 C25 SK SR # 808

dalelargent
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2016 : 11:30:45

I am preparing to make myself a DavyJ style a-frame for fall haul-out.

Quick question, DavyJ: Your refer to the 5 and 10 turns of the shroud turnbuckles. Are those "turns" 180deg or 360deg? I have noticed confusion with friends when helping me rig my boat - and I wish to avoid the same confusion here...

Thanks!

I apologize if you already answered this somewhere and I missed it...

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2016 : 13:28:24

The turns on the turnbuckles were 360 degrees. Sounds strange, but I used a motorcycle spoke wrench and a drift punch. Any wrench and a screwdriver would work. You just need to be able to visually count the turns in both directions to be sure you do the exact same turns loosening and then tightening.

If that's not entirely clear let me know........

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

dalelargent
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2016 : 17:05:35

Perfect! Thanks!

I am assuming my tall rig doesn't require changes to the A-Frame lengths. I think those dimensions are based on the deck, yes?

What steel tubing am I asking for at the hardware store? I want it to be strong/long lasting...I got confused after reading too many posts...

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2016 : 19:24:59

quote:
Originally posted by dalelargent

Perfect! Thanks!

I am assuming my tall rig doesn't require changes to the A-Frame lengths. I think those dimensions are based on the deck, yes?

What steel tubing am I asking for at the hardware store? I want it to be strong/long lasting...I got confused after reading too many posts...

EMT electrical conduit. It's very stiff and does not bend easily. If you pick up anything even remotely flexible you got the wrong stuff. You gotta beat the tar out of it to flatten the ends.

I got mine at Home Depot in the electrical department but Lowes has it too. I think it's 3/4" but might be 1".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-EMT-Conduit-101550/100400406

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 10/05/2016 19:29:17

dalelargent
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2016 : 16:54:48

I simply want to again express my gratitude for this forum and those who go to real effort to educate the rest of us.

I also want to validate this A-frame design! It was very easy to construct and I used it for the first time a few weeks ago, exactly as described with 5 and 10 turns of the turnbuckles. It was the easiest and least stressful un-stepping I have ever done on my C-25 TR...I expected good things, that's why I made it, but...WOW!!!

SO, thanks for the advice and I encourage all others to follow this design as well.

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2016 : 17:50:32

Hi guys,

I see you have already built yours and congrats but for those who follow us, I found using a vise to flatten the ends to be easy and quick. Good luck everyone and thanks again to Davy J.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

dasreboot
Admiral

Members Avatar

803 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2016 : 06:02:31

i normally lower forwards, but i think i'll try the A-frame method this year. since i already have modified my uppers i'll have mo mast sway.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

dalelargent
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 09:15:10

Bladeswell, I also used a vice and found it very quick and easy. I think all I used was a vice, sharpie, measuring tape and a drill. I used a drill press which was quite handy, but I believe a hand drill would be adequate.

I used the vice for flattening, creating the ovals, and for creating the bends.

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 09:31:55

Hi Guys,

Yes, exactly as I did except that I did use a hand drill. Good luck.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 10:56:43

For flattening the ends of the one I built (and let it go with the boat when I sold her) I used a concrete block and a hammer, worked fine. For the bends, I used the trailer hitch receiver on the van. Then took them to the boat and laid them on the deck to check the angles. Also worked very well! Guess you could say I'm low-tech!
And a hand drill for the holes.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/17/2016 11:07:54

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 12:55:05

Low tech works. I did mine in the boat yard. No vice around but a hand sledge hammer and a piece of steel did the trick.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

dalelargent
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 22:24:11

I absolutely love the ingenuity of sailors. Forget McGyver, I would take a sailor any day...

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2016 : 19:52:04

quote:
Originally posted by islander

... but a hand sledge hammer... did the trick.

Otherwise known as a BFH.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2016 : 05:45:36

Or the persuader...

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

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