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balanced rudder modification?

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slim
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/15/2016 : 09:03:37

I am rebuilding my rudder for a 1978 C25 FK and am wondering if i could laminate to the original rudder at this time and make it into a balanced rudder. It seems that by laminating a few inches onto the leading edge, shaping and glassing, i would have a balanced rudder without having to build one from scratch. Has anyone done this before? If so how did it turn out?

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2016 : 11:28:05

You can do anything you put your mind to! Kiding aside, you can build anything you want. Question is should you? If you are willing to take on the work to do it correctly, sure. It sounds like you are already rebuilding your rudder any way.

I bought one when I needed a new rudder as the molds are readily available to manufacture but you may not be able to do that. Honestly, what I've liked about my Catalina is the availability of parts for it even being how old it is. That's what is great, you're not forced to do things like this (but you can).

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

slim
Navigator

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113 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2016 : 12:37:24

Thanks David

I am in this as much for the journey, as I am for the destination, so the work is a pleasure to me.

I also gave a great deal of thought to the fact that my 1978 C25 would have what i consider, one of the best, if not the best sources of information on the old girl and any problems i might run into on her also the availability of almost any part that i might want or need. Last month alone i ordered and installed a new gooseneck for my boom along with a new 4 spring motor mount for my outboard. I found all the information i needed to build an A frame system to raise and lower my mast by myself and made the adjustments and inspections necessary to find out the conditions of my standing rigging. I have much more that i am working on but without the help and information available to me from the members of this forum and CD I would be hard pressed to work with such speed or confidence. Working on a boat that is very near 40 years old with this kind of support is a pleasure for me.

Slim

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 01/15/2016 18:59:20

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2016 : 13:56:34

Why not? Even if your extension breaks off, you won't be in any danger.

Conventional wisdom to achieve a nice balance is to have about 15% of the under-water surface area forward of the pintle line. I think my fiberglass one had about that, but I've seen "balanced" rudders that appear to have less--particularly the HDPE ones from Ruddercraft. It doesn't take much to give you a power-steering feeling, but retaining its self-centering. You don't want enough to make it "self-steering."

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

slim
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/15/2016 : 19:08:05

Stinkpotter

I like the way you think!! Still if it was to break off i might be just a little disappointed

and it would be so nice to see that someone else had done it befor me successfully.

Just looking at the drawings of the balanced rudder it does not appear that i would have to add that much to the forward edge to accomplish it.

slim

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2016 : 19:43:18

IMO, in terms of pure sailing performance, a standard rudder is superior to a balanced rudder. Thus, the question boils down to, what is most important to you? Are you more interested in superior performance, or are you more interested in comfort? A balanced rudder will provide a more comfortable, lighter helm, even if the rig is poorly tuned. A standard rudder will provide an equally light helm, if the rig is well-tuned. If you don't want to bother learning how to tune your rig (it isn't that difficult), then a balanced rudder will appeal to you.

It might sound like I'm denigrating people who like balanced rudders, but I'm not. People come to sailing for different reasons. Some just like to relax, cruise, and enjoy communing with nature. Others are intrigued by the mystery of learning how to get superior performance out of a boat that is driven by wind power. Decide what is more important to you, and that will determine whether or not you should modify your rudder. There's no wrong answer.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 11:01:10

Agreed--an unbalanced rudder will tell you more forcefully about deficiencies in your rig, trim, and even helmsmanship, but if it negatively impacts performance, it didn't do so sufficiently to show up on my GPS or knotmeter--although I was one of the "comfort" sailors Steve refers to... But IIRC, Derek Crawford had the fiberglass balanced rudder on This Side Up--possibly the fastest C-25 in history. (But sadly, she is history.)

One theory I'll offer is that a balanced rudder might hide the evidence of "oversteering", which creates drag that can be felt as excessive pressure and pulsing on the tiller from turbulence. But the "ear test" can help.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/17/2016 11:10:08

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 12:33:39

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

But IIRC, Derek Crawford had the fiberglass balanced rudder on This Side Up--possibly the fastest C-25 in history. (But sadly, she is history.)

Derek is undoubtedly the most knowledgeable and skilled C25 racer I have known, but for pure speed, my C25, Captiva Wind, was the fastest C25 I ever saw, especially in the 1983 C25 Nationals. At the end of the first day, she ranked first in the Regatta. She had so much raw boat speed that, with only her white, dacron sails, she beat all the competition, including the boat which was heavily favored to win, which carried 3 spinnakers and a complete set of laminated racing jibs and mainsail, had a race crew of J24 racers, and a professional tactician hired by his sailmaker. In one race, she wasn't in the lead at the start of the downwind leg, and she actually overtook and passed spinnaker boats on that leg, with only her white sails, to their astonishment. She had a commanding lead until two legs before the finish of the last race. She only had to finish about three places from last to win the regatta. She was in second place in the last race, and about to pass the lead boat when the grommet ripped out of the head of the jib, the jib fell to the foredeck, and she had to finish the last two legs of the race with only as much of the jib flying as I could raise with the boat hook. (I didn't have a spare jib halyard, and the jib halyard was stuck at the masthead.) The whole fleet overtook and passed her before the finish.

Her extraordinary speed was the result of good sail trim, rig tuning, and meticulous boat preparation (a clean and fair hull and keel). I always believed that, when prepping the boat to race, the harder I worked, the more tired and dirty I got, the more attention I paid to details, the faster she would be.

She won the 1985 National Regatta, with the same white dacron sails, beating 29 C25s, including the 1983 and 1984 national champions, all racing in one class including spinnakers and non-spinnakers, with no handicap differentiation for choice of sails.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/17/2016 12:37:19

slim
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 12:47:35

The pro and con of balanced versis stock is not what i was about on this however it did make interesting reading. Nonetheless i have decided not to make the modification after some head scratching. Please see topic Rudder recover epoxy or glass? for a continuation.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2016 : 13:02:53

Hello Everyone,

Wow, great information and an interesting read. As some of you know, I am currently restoring my 1979 C25 TR FK. As it happens, one of the modifications I have been considering for the future is replacing the stock rudder for the Blue Water HDPE rudder. I will be sailing 26 miles offshore to Catalina Island on a regular basis and was thinking I would like the rudder to be deeper and have a better bite in rougher conditions. I have no plans of ever racing her so that wouldn't be an issue.
Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2016 : 18:00:54

FWIW -- I replaced my original rudder with a balanced and determined early on buying an off the shelf version was a whole lot easier -- and predictable -- than making my own modifications. Mine is the epoxy version, purchased through Catalina direct, which, for my type of sailing has been just fine.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

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