Association Forum - Jib winch replacement

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Jib winch replacement

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

jaydon
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
156 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/28/2015 : 07:01:48

Morning
Nothing definate yet, but am looking into replaceing the jib winches with self-tailng ones. I have the original Lemar 7s.
Depending on my $$ situation I was thinking of Lewmar 14AST.
New for $505.30. There is also the Anderson size 12 self-tailing going for $414.00.
Now, if I can't muster the money, anyone have any experience with the Barton Winchers? These are the add on pieces to make a winch self-tailing.
Thanks for any help.
Jay

Jay
South County RI
Cat 25 SR/FK/Trad
#5645
Wind Dancer

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 07:57:35

If you want real self-tailing you will need to purchase new winches. The "winchers" should really be called "cleaters". They will not self-tail like a winch. They will hold the sheet and you may not need to put the line on the horn cleat. Here are a couple of photos of the Winchers on my C25:

Also, they would not work with my 3/8" sheets and I had to replace those with 5/16" lines.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - Davy J on 10/28/2015 07:58:37

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 08:04:36

That's a lot of money to be investing in your boat, and my suggestion is that you give considerable thought to it before you make the leap. IMO, self-tailing winches just aren't necessary on a 25' boat. When you're sailing in winds below about 10-12 kts (which is the majority of the time), the loads on the jib sheets are so moderate that you don't need to use a winch handle to grind the winch. Self tailers are only helpful when the loads are high and you need to use a winch handle. I sometimes race my Cal 25 singlehanded. It doesn't have self tailers. I put the winch handle in before I start the tack, and leave it in until I tack again. If I need to adjust the jib sheet tension in strong winds, I steer with my knee and use one hand to tail and the other hand to grind.

When you tack the boat, even in strong winds, and even on a 40' boat, you should be able to tail the jibsheet in almost all the way without using a winch handle at all. If you have to grind very much, you're turning the boat too far, past closehauled. By doing so, you load up the jib and then you have to use the winch handle to grind it in slowly, until it's trimmed for a closehauled course. If you stop the turn when the boat has come over to closehauled, or even a little sooner, you can pull in all the unloaded jibsheet, and only need to use the winch handle for a half dozen turns, to fine trim the sail. In other words, if you improve your technique, you can eliminate the hard grinding and any perceived need for self tailers. For the same reasons, I don't think winchers are necessary either, but they do in fact work, and are much less costly than self tailers.

Moreover, if you don't buy self tailers, you could buy a telescoping whisker pole for downwind sailing, or you could buy a nice assymetrical spinnaker, or a chartplotter, or a handheld vhf radio, etc.

My suggestion is that you work on refining your tacking techniques before you invest that much in self tailers. You might find that you don't really need them.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 08:18:10

Defender has the Lewmar Ocean Series 16CST Self-Tailing Winch - Size 16 for $425. These are Chrome and are the ones Catalina put on the boat if you ordered ST's I think the 14ST's are the same but just shorter. As Steve said above, Do you need them? Maybe not but I have them and although I don't usually use the self tailing feature (Having the line in the top jaws all the time) Being able to just cleat the line with a quick rap in the jaws is nice and can be done from any angle rather than having to line up with a cam cleat or horn. Also to release the line is simple, Pull the line straight up.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/28/2015 08:41:50

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 09:14:47

Steve,

The other thing that self tailers do that help in any kind of breeze is allow you to trim with one hand. Without self-tailers, you really need one hand to tail and the other to grind, and a knee to take the tiller and a leg to hold your beverage

. I guess im spoiled at this point but I love sailing singlehanding with them on my boat and it makes tacking a breeze. Setup the lazy-sheet and handle prior, start your tack, release the new lazy-sheet, switch sides, trim with one hand and tiller with the other. Nothing better than a nice day with a nice breeze and complete autonomous sailing that just feels natural and effortless.

I don't think I would own a boat at this point without self-tailing winches. However, most folks with furlers say the same thing and I just dont mind hanking the head-sail up. Different strokes for different folks. I usually raise and lower the sails once during a sail, but I'm sheeting the jib the whole time. Only you can choose where the money goes, and boy will it.

-Rob

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 09:57:27

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBuoy

Different strokes for different folks.

Agreed. We have members who love their self tailers, and others who like their winchers, and others who don't think they're necessary. That's what's good about the forum. You get all the different points of view, and then you can choose what you believe will work best for you. There's no right or wrong answer to this question.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 10:03:10

I've heard people say they got the "Winchers" to tail for them--I never did when I tried them. As Davy says, they're OK for cleating, but I never saw much advantage to that. I tried them out of curiosity, but never felt the need to invest in self-tailing winches for our C-25. I understand the advantage Rob describes, but I rarely used the winch handle--sometimes if I wanted to harden the genny a little more on a beat and couldn't easily do it by pulling, I'd luff up for a few seconds and give it a yank.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

dasreboot
Admiral

Members Avatar

803 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 10:08:56

I too have thought of them for jib sheets. Until I recently was on a boat with them in the governors cup race. easier to trim. harder to ease. I think I like my cam cleat on the jib sheets better. The other issue is that it is supposedly unsafe to leave the handle in, as a failing pawl will spin the handle around with bone breaking force. If you are cleated off elsewhere, that is not a problem.

However, I want one for my main halyard. Not having to tail that one would be nice.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2015 : 18:49:54

quote:
Originally posted by dasreboot

I too have thought of them for jib sheets. Until I recently was on a boat with them in the governors cup race. easier to trim. harder to ease. I think I like my cam cleat on the jib sheets better. The other issue is that it is supposedly unsafe to leave the handle in, as a failing pawl will spin the handle around with bone breaking force. If you are cleated off elsewhere, that is not a problem.

However, I want one for my main halyard. Not having to tail that one would be nice.

My handles don't spin with the winch when easing so that's usually not an issue. I don't leave them in anyway.

My spinnaker winches arnt tailers and I use cam cleats but usually don't set them as I'm more actively trimming the spin so it works out nice.

You can kind of see my setup here..

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2015 : 06:59:34

quote:
Originally posted by dasreboot

The other issue is that it is supposedly unsafe to leave the handle in, as a failing pawl will spin the handle around with bone breaking force. If you are cleated off elsewhere, that is not a problem.

I have never seen that happen, but have heard that it can happen, and that, for 2-3 years, Lewmar Ocean series winches were subject to premature wear and were particularly prone to that possibility. Since then, Lewmar developed their EVO line of winches and modified the Ocean series winches, and the problem has been corrected. Nevertheless, it's an uncommon occurrence, and I have never heard of anyone actually being injured by it.

As a practical matter, when you crew on someone else's boat, I don't know of any way of knowing if the winches are defective. So, the best way to protect yourself is to always be aware that it could happen, and always be in control of the winch.

As Todd said, the winches won't spin if the sheet is cleated. They also won't spin if you keep tension on the jibsheet and on the winch handle when you uncleat the line to adjust the tension on the jibsheet. It's no solution to leave the winch handle out, because you'll need the winch handle to adjust the winch tension in strong winds, especially on a big boat. If it happens anyway, despite your best efforts, don't reach for the spinning winch handle and try to stop it. Let it spin until it stops. I had that happen a couple times when the winch on my trailer failed while launching the boat, and it spun out of control. I didn't release the safety chain until the boat was in position to launch. I let it spin and no harm was done. The boat rolled off the trailer into the water. Keep it under control, but, if you lose control of it, stay out of it's way.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2015 : 14:48:37

APS has a couple of winches on sale right now. Look in their sale section and use the 20% off coupon (treats2015) that is active right now for sale items.

This one should be of greater interest to C-25 sailors:
http://www.apsltd.com/16-standard-winch-two-speed-1.html

$283.60 for a non-self-tailing #16 two-speed Anderson winch, that's a great deal.

The #28 is big for a Catalina 25, but also a nice deal (and is a self tailing model):
http://www.apsltd.com/28-self-tailing-winch-two-speed-1.html

Alex W
Seattle, WA
Express 37 "re-Quest"
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra"

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2015 : 15:58:34

IMHO self-tailing winches are totally unnecessary on a 25' boat. If you are a racer they cost you seconds on every tack - and those small seconds add up in any race.
I tried winchers once and threw them away as being virtually useless. I had 2-speed 16's on TSU and they were a godsend in high winds.
I agree with Steve that a good tacking technique can save a pile of pulling!

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2015 : 17:43:02

Regarding tacking techniques, I found tacks were easiest if the jib/genoa was sheeted in quickly as the bow was passing through the wind and the sail was luffing. But how far do you haul in the sheet in a hurry? While I didn't do this, I could imagine finding the "normal" trim (for normal winds) on beats, and wrapping some colored tape around the sheet where it comes off the winch--maybe just past the cleat. In light air, you wouldn't haul it in that far, and in strong wind, maybe a little farther. But basically, you do it before any real effort or mechanical advantage is necessary. And if you've moved the track car back for stronger winds, then you might need to pull the sheet even a little farther.

These days I have various colored tape stripes on my anchor rode every 25'--not quite the same, but...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/29/2015 17:44:40

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2015 : 18:39:03

I have crewed for many sailors who turned the boat 30 degrees or more past closehauled every time they tacked. The result is that the jib loaded at that point, and the tailer had to grind and grind and grind the winch to get the jib trimmed up to a beat. That takes a long time, and it makes the tailer arm-weary. While he's doing that, the boat is going the wrong direction. The skipper wants to sail closehauled to windward, but instead he's sailing 30 or more degrees off the wind more than is necessary.

Who's fault is that? The helmsman's. Helmsmen have a strong tendency to turn the boat too fast through a tack. They should bring the boat head to wind fairly quickly and smoothly, let the boat coast straight into the wind for a few seconds, and then bear off onto the new heading fairly slowly. What purpose does that serve? It lets the boat gain a little ground directly to windward. It also gives the tailer more time to tail the slack out of the jibsheet as the sail crosses the eye of the wind. The helmsman should stop the turn when the jib is streaming along the gunwale on the new tack. At that point, the sail is luffing, unloaded, and the tailer can haul in the jibsheet easily without having to grind the winch. When he has taken in all the slack, but hasn't yet pulled hard on the jibsheet, the helmsman should bear off another few degrees, load up the sail and get it driving. The sail will be trimmed for a close reach, but not closehauled. That will be just full enough to let the boat accelerate out of the tack. As it accelerates, the tailer should gradually grind the winch until the sail is trimmed for closehauled.

If the helmsman steers the boat through the tack in that manner, then the tailer shouldn't need a mark on the jibsheet to tell him when the sail is in trim. When the tailer has taken all the slack out of the jibsheet, he'll be able to feel it, because at that point he'll have to pull much harder to trim in the sheet any further.

While were talking about tacking procedures, never backwind the jib, with the only possible exception being if you are sailing shorthanded in light air. If you have crew, it's always better to have crew on the foredeck grab the sail and throw it around the shrouds. Backwinding the jib is like putting on the brakes. It rubs off boatspeed when you need as much speed as you can get. Also, it uses up some of the precious time that the tailer has to get the long jibsheet tailed in. Nothing good happens when you backwind the jib that can't be accomplished by having crew helping the sail across.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

DavidBuoy
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2015 : 19:25:11

Speaking of self tailing, the lady snapped this photo tonight of me doing exactly what I mentioned.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2015 : 20:37:28

Good on ya, mate... But I never imagined getting the winch handle out in that kind of flat water.

Then again, I didn't have self-tailers...

Regarding Steve's description of a tack, I remember years ago observing how Dennis Conner steered through tacks--beginning and ending the turn gradually. I always assumed it was to minimize drag and maintain momentum. It probably also gained a few meters to windward as Steve describes. With the transom-hung rudders on all of the sailboats I've owned, I figured that if I could hear turbulence on the rudder, I was slowing the boat. I've sailed with many other skippers who spin the wheel or slam the tiller to tack, and have often noticed the feeling of the brakes being applied--especially on smaller, lighter boats.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/29/2015 20:47:47

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2015 : 11:46:35

quote:
sometimes if I wanted to harden the genny a little more on a beat and couldn't easily do it by pulling, I'd luff up for a few seconds and give it a yank.

Like Dave this is how I do fine adjustments. In the 6 yrs of owning my boat I have NEVER had a winch handle in those winches. Never saw the need. The only place I use the winch handle is on the cabin top winch to tighten up the main sail luff the last inch or so to remove any wrinkles then it becomes a useful hanger for the coiled main halyard. I suppose if you race you wouldn't do this. Most of the time I can haul all the line in on a tack, Set my course then slacken the line to tune the sail.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/30/2015 11:50:48

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2015 : 18:31:47

For what it's worth . . . . when I replaced my winches I went with Lewmar two speed. I did not see the need for self tailing and I do use a winch handle but rarely -- only in a blow. As far as "winchers" it is an intriguing idea that I tried with a previous boat but I did not see the real need for them. Possibly if i did significant off shore work self tailing and/or winchers would be useful, but for coastal day sailing it is one of those expenses I have felt unnessary.

Just saying . . . .

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 10/31/2015 16:32:29

wanderer13
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2015 : 16:10:09

I have Lewmar 16STs and I love them. I have sailed with and without self-tailing winches and I prefer self-tailing for the heads'l sheets - but that is a personal preference, of course.

1981 Catalina 25 FK/TR

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2015 : 19:37:22

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBuoy

Speaking of self tailing, the lady snapped this photo tonight of me doing exactly what I mentioned.

Light wind, selftailers should have another wrap. Remember the friction of the drum is holding in the sail, not the striper or the jaws.

Frank Hopper

jaydon
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
156 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2015 : 07:43:30

Morning all,
Thanks for all the thoughts on the self tailers. Great opinion both ways. I'm up in the air, but the suggestion that for the cost of the new winches, I could have a new mail, bow cushions or outboard bracketgot me really thinking.
Thanks again
Jay

Jay
South County RI
Cat 25 SR/FK/Trad
#5645
Wind Dancer

ct95949
Captain

Members Avatar

Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2015 : 21:11:49

quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
sometimes if I wanted to harden the genny a little more on a beat and couldn't easily do it by pulling, I'd luff up for a few seconds and give it a yank.

Like Dave this is how I do fine adjustments. In the 6 yrs of owning my boat I have NEVER had a winch handle in those winches. Never saw the need. The only place I use the winch handle is on the cabin top winch to tighten up the main sail luff the last inch or so to remove any wrinkles then it becomes a useful hanger for the coiled main halyard. I suppose if you race you wouldn't do this. Most of the time I can haul all the line in on a tack, Set my course then slacken the line to tune the sail.

Yup. I rarely used the jib winches on my old boat. My new boat came with self-tailers but if it hadn't I would never have spent the money for new ones.

'90 SR/WK #6017. PO of '79 SR/SK.

Heartbeat
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2015 : 13:53:16

I am in the non-self tailing world. I have seen self-tailers on running backs on bigger boats, but never for a jib on a boat that wants to go fast.

I would recommend the two-speed 16s. At one point I looked into larger winches - 24s? It's pretty rare that I want larger winches, but if I were buying now, I would consider the Harken 20...

Matt

former Captain of Heartbeat
Catalina 25 Tall
#4816

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2015 : 07:12:39

I had 2-speed winches on my boat. If all you have ever used is singles, it will take some getting used to (handle does not rotate freely in the opposite direction), but they are nice to have.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.