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Tohatsu vs Honda

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2015 : 09:00:36

You are correct - the torque of the motor is unchanged. But the trasmission (pun intended) of that torque into moving water is affected by prop pitch and motor speed. The effect of prop pitch/diameter the same effect as running a car in low gear vs. high gear. In selecting a fixed blade prop, you're basically picking what "gear" the motor is going to run in, and there are tradeoffs of slow speed maneuvering vs. greater noise (and other high RPM issues) at hull speed.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2015 : 19:01:38

Looking a the Tohatsu outboard, the dealer recommended buying the power tilt option. Is that worth the extra money or is just something else to go wrong. Also if the power tilt fails, can you raise and lower the motor manually?

Steve Raffel
C 250 WK #408

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2016 : 15:21:31

My Honda dealer who also sells the Tohatsu claims that if I replace my 16 year old Honda 9.9, I can get the equivalent power from a new Honda 8 because the new 8 has a 4 blade prop. The Honda 9.9 is $1000 more than the Tohatsu 9.8. The Honda 8 is $700 more than the Tohatsu.

Has anyone used a new style Honda 8 on a 250WK

Steve Raffel
C 250 WK #408

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/11/2016 : 22:15:15

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raffel

My Honda dealer who also sells the Tohatsu claims that if I replace my 16 year old Honda 9.9, I can get the equivalent power from a new Honda 8 because the new 8 has a 4 blade prop. The Honda 9.9 is $1000 more than the Tohatsu 9.8. The Honda 8 is $700 more than the Tohatsu.

Has anyone used a new style Honda 8 on a 250WK

Power is power. A different prop will not get you more power. It just has a different balance of properties. (see prior posts in this thread) If a four blade prop has a better balance of properties for your boat, why not just get a four blade prop for your current motor?

A 16 year old motor is barely broken in on a sailboat. Remember, it's AUXILIARY power. Have you replaced your old, blown-out sails? That might be a better use of your money.

PS: Still waiting for you to define what you mean by "tired." If it's running reliably, why replace it? And if not, why not fix it?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2016 : 20:27:48

The problem is it is impossible to start many times. My mechanic says it is very likely an electrical problem but he can't identify exactly what is wrong. He suggested replacing all the electronics ($790) or buying a new Honda 8. I am probably going with the Honda 8 but not 100% sure.

Steve Raffel
C 250 WK #408

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2016 : 22:11:39

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raffel

The problem is it is impossible to start many times. My mechanic says it is very likely an electrical problem but he can't identify exactly what is wrong. He suggested replacing all the electronics ($790) or buying a new Honda 8. I am probably going with the Honda 8 but not 100% sure.

OK, that makes a lot of sense. You motor is not tired, it's "shot."

On a C250, 8 HP is enough for a lot of conditions. My boat came with a 15 hp Honda of similar vintage, and you can almost waterski with that thing (or so it seems). Unless you have strong currents or anticipate motoring into very strong winds, 8 hp should be enough. A different prop could help, but my way of selecting a prop would be to pick one that gets the appropriate RPMs at full throttle. Too high max RPMs could damage the motor, too low max RPMs and you deny yourself some torque at lower speeds.

Although I would have never bought 15 hp, I have come to enjoy having it. It gets to hull speed by turning a larger prop at pretty low RPMs, translating into a quieter ride on long cruises. I have very strong currents, so it's nice to have the power on reserve just in case it's needed for docking maneuvers.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2016 : 08:23:49

At $780 it sounds like your mechanic isn't going to bother with trouble shooting the problem but instead he is going to replace all the electronics in a blanket attempt to solve the problem. It also sounds like he wants to sell you a new engine. I had a similar issue with my 1997 9.9. Start and run fine then would just shut off and wouldn't re start or wouldn't start at all but might start later after fiddling with wiring etc. It was the moving the wire harness around that clued me in on a broken wire, Not visible inside the harness that would make contact intermittently. Ordered a new harness from Boats.net. for $70 and it solved the problem. Very easy to install, Just plug each wire in one at a time. The 9.9 is a strong engine and should last a long time on a sailboat.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 01/16/2016 08:50:42

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3367 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2016 : 14:58:09

When I bought my boat in 2005, the Honda 9.9hp was finicky. Most times, it would start right away but after sailing, sometimes could not restart it or if I did, it would sometimes Konk out and then would not restart. I brought it into the Washington Marina, oldest marina in DC area located in DC. They had an engine mechanic and he indicated, similar to what was stated in an above posting, that it was an electrical issue. He indicated it would cost around $500 to tear it down and replace basic electrical components but if that did not work, then addl troubleshooting and replacement parts would jack the price up higher. He suggested I consider buying a new outboard before he got started on the work. Now this was back in 2005 and the Washington Marina sold Hondas, Yamahas, Tohatsu, Evinrude/Johnsons and maybe another brand. They suggested I consider another Honda or a Yamaha. What went thru my mind was when I had my brand new 1980 ODay23, the thing I really loved was the brand new Evinrude 7.5 (2 stroke) that I had bought and how reliable it was. I believe the Honda 4 strokes were not out on the market very long at the time and I decided on the Evinrude. Having a brand new outboard that was highly reliable seemed the way to go rather than sink a lot of money into an older outboard and doubtful it would be as reliable as a new one. So, in Jan 2006, I replaced my finicky outboard with a new 9.9hp Honda and it has been reliable now for over 10 years. Just used it this past Wedensday when temps climbed from the 30s to about 50F but water was closer to 35F. Outboard started first time.

If they are indicating it is an electrical issue, it's not a spring chicken and it is going to cost big time money to fix it......I would strongly consider buying a new outboard.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/16/2016 15:01:26

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2016 : 12:09:09

As with my Mercury (Tohatsu powerhead), there are multiple props available with a suggested boat type and expected speed range. My big, 4 blade, low pitch prop has a speed range of 1 - 14. Definitely lots of thrust in our speed range

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2016 : 12:01:06

I just bought my third Tohatsu outboard...I have had 4 sailboats. I would never have anything else in the under 10HP range. When I first got my 250, I ordered it with a Honda. It was 2003 and Honda had just changed their outboard from the smaller, lighter 9.9 to the larger style they are making today. An inexperienced boater drove right into it at the marina and snapped it in half. Since I wasn't pleased with the size, I replaced it with a Tohatsu 8. The electric start always worked and it never let me down. This year, I decided to treat myself to power tilt and so just bought the Tohatsu 9.8 with electric trim. No more reaching back to haul that motor up or drop her into the water. I should mention that I have a fixed height outboard bracket and use the tiller on the motor in conjunction with the tiller on the boat when docking in strong lateral winds or when visiting a narrow slipped marina with a narrow fairway. All and all I could not be happier!
Willy

Edgy, WB#655
Dewey Beach, DE

Edited by - willy on 02/15/2016 12:02:48

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2016 : 13:57:03

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raffel

My Honda dealer who also sells the Tohatsu claims that if I replace my 16 year old Honda 9.9, I can get the equivalent power from a new Honda 8 because the new 8 has a 4 blade prop. The Honda 9.9 is $1000 more than the Tohatsu 9.8. The Honda 8 is $700 more than the Tohatsu.

Has anyone used a new style Honda 8 on a 250WK

Not me, but I bought a high-thrust Honda 8 for my heavier C-25. It is in most respects (displacement, carb, prop, alternator, etc.) identical to the Honda 9.9, except for the cam. A Honda factory rep at a boat show recommended it to me over the 9.9 because the 9.9 is cammed for higher power at wide open throttle--better for a planing inflatable--while the 8 is cammed for more torque at lower rpms--more suitable for maneuvering a heavy sailboat. I doubt that I ever throttled up past about 2/3, generally ran at about 1/2, and going into a slip, it would stop Passage like she'd run into a pillow.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

gosenbach
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/24/2016 : 13:53:28

Hi guys. related question. What exactly is the hull speed on the 250? My boat came with a 15hp Honda and it is very big and heavy. I suspect it is a wee bit overpowered and I could probably lighten the stern a bit with a smaller motor.

Gregory
(Catalina 250 MkII WK #971)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2016 : 17:06:30

The theoretical hull speed for A C250 is 6.17 kts. http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/c25spec.asp

IMO, the size of motor you need depends on how you intend to use the boat. If you only expect to use it to get in and out of a marina, 5-6 hp will be ample. If you intend to cruise the Great Lakes, The ICW and similar venues, you'd probably appreciate more power. I think Take Five's recommendation is pretty sensible, where he says: "On a C250, 8 HP is enough for a lot of conditions. My boat came with a 15 hp Honda of similar vintage, and you can almost waterski with that thing (or so it seems). Unless you have strong currents or anticipate motoring into very strong winds, 8 hp should be enough."

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2016 : 18:52:24

To repeat and add to some other comments that I made:

Before switching outboards, make sure to look up actual weight specs. You might find that you're not saving as much weight as you think. I don't know what vintage Honda you have, but the older ones with the square cowlings were smaller and lighter at a given horsepower. If you're moving to the next generation Honda, your less powerful motor might not be much lighter.

Also, realize that all 4 cycle motors are pretty heavy. If you're comparing it with 2 cycle motors that you may have experienced in the past, you're going to find them all to be heavy.

Also, as I said before, note that a more powerful motor will get to hull speed at lower RPMs, translating into a quieter ride. If you do cruising with the potential for lots of motoring time, the quieter hum might make a difference to you.

My general advice to anyone with a working motor is to think twice before changing. Remember, it's just auxiliary power, so best to put your money into stuff that has a greater impact on actual sailing. If you're a racer, then a lighter motor is important. But if you're a racer, why do you have a C250?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/25/2016 05:07:53

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2016 : 20:11:27

Regarding wind and currents, more power (and a higher-thrust prop) might help against strong headwinds and heavy chop, but currents are another matter. The boat can only move through the water at a specific speed at any throttle setting, and cannot exceed "hull speed" at any throttle (unless it can get up on plane). That's without regard to whether the water is moving or not. Your speed over the bottom is the speed through the water minus (or plus) the speed of the current, but the boat doesn't know about the current. If hull speed is 6.2 and the "hurting" current is 1.5, you're not going more than 4.7 on the GPS at full throttle, whether you have 8, 9.9, 15, or 20 hp. And my Honda 8 reached hull speed at probably about 2/3 throttle. Now, a MacGregor 26 with a 50hp can overcome this, but that's by going up on plane.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/24/2016 20:13:57

OLarryR
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3367 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2016 : 08:55:37

The other thing that you need to consider besides the outboard mfrs and if going with power tilt or not is that considering you had a 16 yr old outboard, you probably have the 2 spring Garhauer support bracket. So, you may want to give that some consideration as well when deciding on outboards of different weights and power tilt or not. Catalina Direct use to have and may still have a table with recommended outboard weight ranges for the different number of spring outboard brackets that they sell.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 03/25/2016 08:56:24

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/25/2016 : 09:44:49

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Regarding wind and currents, more power (and a higher-thrust prop) might help against strong headwinds and heavy chop, but currents are another matter. The boat can only move through the water at a specific speed at any throttle setting, and cannot exceed "hull speed" at any throttle (unless it can get up on plane). That's without regard to whether the water is moving or not...

Cruising at hull speed is only part of the story. I can tell you after 6 years of docking in 2+ knots of current, that the extra power makes a big difference in being able to make quick changes during docking maneuvers.

I would have never bought a 15 hp motor for my boat, but now that I have it I am glad. And the similar vintage 9.9 hp model is exactly the same dimensions and weight, so the extra power has no weight penalty.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

gosenbach
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2016 : 12:18:05

Good point about the current... We get some wicked strong currents here in the Puget Sound. 12+foot exchanges some days.

Gregory
(Catalina 250 MkII WK #971)

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2016 : 09:42:08

I have a 2013 Tohatsu 9.9 and it runs great and sips gas. My only complaint is it does not clear enough to steer well with the motor if you deem that necessary. Just got back from my winter trip to Arizona. Did land a 6 lb largemouth bass! Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

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