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Keel Trunk Damage

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jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/01/2015 : 18:37:36

Hi fellows,

Well, first a cracked bow and now a cracked keel trunk. We were sailing in about 6' water and had a serious collision with clump of rocks. The keel pushed up and when it came down, wow was it a wham! First thing I did was check under the seat and sure enough salty water. Its a seep more than its a leak but I know I have problems. I'm going to drop the keel first and make sure I didn't damage the hangers or the glass under them. Man, I'm hoping its just a cracked keel trunk. The keel slamming home was worse than the collision.

Anyhow, getting to my question. I've got a settee model where the seat is over the keel trunk. Anyone know any tricks for the minimal amount of cutting? I'm hoping to make as few cuts as possible getting the seat cut away from the trunk.

Also, and I know this is a long shot, but has anyone ever heard of some kind of dampening system being rigged in for the keel? I figure that while I'm in there I might do some reinforcing, but dampening the beast of keel would be nice as well.

I've seriously considered adding an "un" in front of Lucky Duck. I guess if you never sail them, you never have to work on them. See plenty of boats in our neighborhood that never leave the slips. I count this as lessons learned before I buy the "big" boat in a few years.

One more ramble, man oh man, do I wish I could find an old wing keel conversion kit. I'm only about a decade late looking for one of those.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2015 : 19:55:35

Too bad about the kit, but the overall cost (purchase, transportation, installation...) was and would be pretty high for a boat of that vintage and value--your money might be better spent finding a wing keel boat. I suspect the economics played a big part in the demise of the kit.

Sorry I can't help--mine was a fin. My closest experience was on our Sunfish when I hit an object in a man-made lake (Tree? House? Stone wall? Plymouth?) ...and cracked the dagger-board trunk. The boat was half full of water by the time I got back to shore. But take heart--the old saying is there are three categories of sailors: Those who have run aground, those who will run aground, and those who have run aground but won't admit it!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/01/2015 20:00:01

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2015 : 22:05:51

I've got a nice '89 wing keel I'll sell you. Got a trailer too!

You'd have to buy it without a test sail as I'm not going out with you and I'm not letting you take it by yourself!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 07/01/2015 22:06:58

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2015 : 03:55:59

Yeah, I have an unhealthy relationship with this boat. I think if I had to ever give up on her, I would just go bigger now instead of in a few years. We were sailing to north of Hudson in water that I wasn't real familiar with. The charts didn't show any documented wrecks or big rock clusters, but we managed to find one. We were 5 miles off shore in a low tide.

We have had plenty of soft groundings in sand and those are always no big deal. It's just freakin shallow were I'm at. I've that about putting up small sails and seeing how crazy the ride is with the keel up.

Oh come on Gary, if it can't handle a little roughness during a test cruise, it's probably not a boat for me lol.

At least fiberglass is cheap. I'll take plenty of pics while I'm getting her patched up. At least I'm way past pretty with this boat and can go for functionality.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2015 : 07:03:53

quote:
You'd have to buy it without a test sail as I'm not going out with you and I'm not letting you take it by yourself!

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2015 : 07:22:37

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

...It's just freakin shallow were I'm at...

I just looked at the chart around Hudson... Are you on one of the canals? But "shallow"?? Holy _____! I've had more water in my bilge! It shows one marked "channel" that goes over land at low tide, and others where you have to go about 3 miles to reach 6' of water. Right? How do you plan to get a bigger boat (unless it's an airboat

)? It looks from here like a C-25 wing might be about the biggest boat with a keel you can go with around there, although some people say a wing keel just makes things worse by acting like an anchor in a soft grounding.

You might need to invest in forward-scanning sonar!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/02/2015 07:24:03

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2015 : 07:31:28

quote:
although some people say a wing keel just makes things worse by acting like an anchor in a soft grounding.

Yep, My PO told me about that. Supposedly the wing digs in like an anchor but the plus side is no real damage outside of some scraped up paint or a few dings. What if you cranked the keel up a few inches from fully down. Then the cable would take the hit and not the trunk? Or do you think the cable and winch would rip out.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 07/02/2015 07:38:40

capted
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2015 : 08:58:34

I've certainly had my share of swing keel problems. the first time the wire broke and the keel did a full fall and punched through the dinette seat. The boat was fairly new then, so it was worth an expensive repair job. Incidentally, I also hit something and did collect on my insurance that first time. Of course, it's likely the insurance company would total the boat now. Anyway, the original repair was so strong that it has survived two more incidents without damage. So if you reinforce the back of the trunk, it may be good. I've contemplated a bumper for years but haven't figured anything out.
Each time I've had one hanger bolt broken, but the keel stayed on. Last time the yard wanted to put in high-strength bolts and I told them no- it's better to replace the bolt than to have to reglass one of the threaded inserts.
Now what I've done is to replace all the lifting gear. For a hit, maybe keeping the wire taunt would provide some cushion, although you may have a broken wire in the end.
Good luck with the boat
Ed

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2015 : 11:58:59

I had a mild version of what you went through, and I had a traditional interior, so all I had to do was remove the box over the keel trunk. She was repairable from inside.
In order to repair a C25 keel trunk with a dinette interior, you will have to cut into the dinette seat on both sides and likely the front as well to get to all 3 sides of the keel trunk. Depends on where the damage is. Mine was just on the front edge of the keel trunk, had a hairline crack where the returning keel hit, so I would start thereA
also, you will have to haul the boat, as the area you will be repairing is below the waterline.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2015 : 12:03:36

Get a Hake Seaward 26. She has a motorized retractable bulb keel, and the rudder comes up as well. Another alternative is the S2-7.9. That boat's daggerboard keel is fully retractable, as is most of the rudder.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

wanderer13
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2015 : 19:11:12

I think you need to rename your boat... "Unlucky Duck"!

1981 Catalina 25 FK/TR

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2015 : 05:17:00

Thanks for the comment fellows.

Yep to say it's shallow here is a bit of an under statement. I disabled the alarm on my depth meter a long time ago. Not that it would have saved me on this one. It's mounted behind the keel.

I'm hopeful that I only find a broken bolt or two on the keel hangers. I'm going to check there first. If I have damage under the hangers, I have some hard decisions to make.

Being that I have to cut the seat away to get it fixed. I'm not shooting for original looks when I go back together. There will be lots of overbuild and bracing. I've toyed with the idea of putting in some kind of friction slides to slow the keel down, but I think the precision required for that is a magnitude greater than I can manage on the old boat.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2015 : 20:26:28

I have toyed with the idea of a heavy rubber wedge on the aft edge of the compartment. I always tension the cable a little, so I would probably have room. Slowing the impact from 1/100 second to 1/10 of a second decreases the impact by a factor of 10.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2015 : 06:14:59

Not a bad idea Dave, and yeah your right. Spreading the impact over even a fraction of second would take the force way down. My current plan, assuming there isn't any horrible structural damage is to patch it good enough to sail. We are going to pull the boat and put it on the trailer for the winter and I'll have plenty of time to engineer a solution and make the patch look somewhat decent. Whatever I end up doing will end up being a bit of a craps shot. There's no way I'm going to move into the testing phase after reinforcing and such lol.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2015 : 04:30:57

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Too bad about the kit, but the overall cost (purchase, transportation, installation...) was and would be pretty high for a boat of that vintage and value--your money might be better spent finding a wing keel boat. I suspect the economics played a big part in the demise of the kit.

I've wondered if a homemade wingkeel would be better made by shortening a lead fin keel and bolting on two wing keel castings or a bulb. certainly not out of range for an amateur , and it has been done many times on other boats. It would be easier than trying to retrofit a swing keel.

http://marskeel.com/production/repair-modifications/draft-reductions/article-cut-your-keel-keep-your-boat/

of course if you can find a wing keel for sale, go that route. probably costs the same as the conversion.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2015 : 07:54:26

Couple of thoughts. A rubber bumper could be too soft and pliant to do much slowing the swing keel. I'd think that some kind of waterproof wood like cedar or pressure treated pine glassed in at the impact point may be a better cushion.
Second, while its nice, especially in your waters to have a swing keel to squeak through the shallows, is there some way to simply glass the existing keel in place and forget it?
That said, it my just be the best bet to repair it to a salable condition and move up to an end-of-season bargain in September. Meanwhile I'll lend you my 16ft centerboard AMF Alcort Sunbird. It's on a trailer and it has a full kit of sails and a 2 stroke putt-putt.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2015 : 10:27:00

A sunfish would be a lot of fun in the water down here. It would be a bit of a drive to borrow it for the weekend :)

I'm too far in on this boat to really want to just get another one. I'm not a factory stock kinda guy and have made too many improvements to just replace her short of serious structural damage. Even then, I would still probably just get to glassing.

I would love to be rid of the swing keel, but really do need it where I'm at. I've thought about trying to sail with it up and see how crazy the ride is. I'm betting not good. With the keel up, a lot of that weight is transferred aft.

I'm a project guy. Even if it doesn't make sense, I still start projects just to say I did it. That being said, I'm not above building my own keel and bolting it on. Still, I think I can get the swing keel reinforced a whole lot easier. It's not inherently a bad design, just a little weak in spots.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2015 : 11:25:47

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00
[br I've thought about trying to sail with it up and see how crazy the ride is. I'm betting not good. With the keel up, a lot of that weight is transferred aft.

I sailed with it up quite regularly. I had to sail out of a shallow creek. Results were not as drastic as you would think. It heeled a bit more and pointed a little less. In fact I was hit with a 30+ mph gust while it was up. boat went over about 50-60 degrees and rounded up. I do wonder if the pivot is taking too much stress with it up. Maybe however the slot limits the sideways movement of the keel. dont know as I no longer have one.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2015 : 12:24:04

Because the C25 swing keel doesn't retract into a trunk, it provides as much lateral resistance with it up as with it down. What you lose by retracting it is the much longer lever arm of the keel, and the lower center of gravity.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2015 : 14:04:58

I'll have to give it a try when I get her patched up. A lot of the day's the wind is around 10 knots. So it's low enought that heeling shoundnt be a big issue. I'm not worried about the keel itself when it's up. I sleeved the pivot hole and put the new hangers on. It basically has no slop at the front end. I also added a rubber bumper on the cable end so I can pull it up snug without damaging the hull. When it's up and snug, it doesn't move.

I'm going to start cutting next weekend. I'll post the pics as I start getting into it.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2015 : 16:15:13

So I have started cutting.... lots and lots of cutting. I'm not seeing any noticeable damage, but the leek is most likely near the hull. I plan on cutting more away and cleaning the whole mess up and then relaunch the boat to see where the water is coming in.

The question is, where do most of the leaks happen? I think I read somewhere that it is where the trunk meets the hull, but I do drink a bit of rum while I'm on the computer.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

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