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islander
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Initially Posted - 05/13/2015 :  17:41:32  Show Profile
This is really about the later models with the dedicated fuel locker. I came across this in the Federal boating rules. The dedicated locker with a vented gas tank inside doesn't appear to have proper ventilation by these rules or am I misunderstanding something...The 4th one down.
quote:
Ventilation (33 CFR 175/183, 46 CFR 25)
Boats that use gasoline for electrical generation, mechanical power, or
propulsion are required to be equipped with a ventilation system .
A natural ventilation system is required for each compartment in a boat that:
• Contains a permanently installed gasoline engine .
• Has openings between it and a compartment that requires
ventilation .
• Contains a permanently installed fuel tank and an electrical
component that is not ignition-protected .
• Contains a fuel tank that vents into that compartment
(including a portable tank .)
• Contains a non-metallic fuel tank .
A natural ventilation system consists of:
• A supply opening (duct/cowl) from the outside air (located on the
exterior surface of the boat), or from a ventilated compartment, or
from a compartment that is open to the outside air .
• An exhaust opening into another ventilated compartment or an
exhaust duct to the atmosphere .

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 05/13/2015 17:44:19

DavidBuoy
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Response Posted - 05/13/2015 :  19:23:47  Show Profile
My locker has a slot towards aft that I typically run the fuel line through, would that qualify as natural ventilation? That locker is also far from air tight, I wonder if that's how Catalina got away with it? Definitely a good point.


Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053
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Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/13/2015 :  19:32:04  Show Profile
Scott, are the regs saying that you have to have a ventilator for our portable tanks located on the deck of the boat? So if I did not have a cover over the gas tank then would I still need a big fan to ventilate it?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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wanderer13
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Response Posted - 05/13/2015 :  19:41:28  Show Profile
A "natural ventilation system". As in a louvered vent in the side of the compartment to allow the fumes to escape. Unless you're talking about the early models where the compartment was inside the lazarette, the Catalina 25 fuel locker with a vent meets Federal regulations.

1981 Catalina 25 FK/TR
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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  03:34:12  Show Profile
There is a vent opening in the lower left front corner and, if I'm not mistaken, I think there is a slot also in the upper right side of the lid. My vented tank with ETOH was causing the black mold to spread and it was coming up there.

I'll hafta go look at it again, but I think that cover has a slot in the middle of the seat that lets air vent up to the right. ( right about where the hand with a cigarette might linger. :) )

I remember seeing light there when I was working on my new tank and closing it and thinking, "Oh... that must be a vent design."

Maybe it's just warped with age.. but I'll go have a look at it.


Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 05/14/2015 03:34:59
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islander
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  04:20:40  Show Profile
True there is the opening in the bottom left that we run the fuel line out so I guess that would qualify as the exhaust but although the compartment isn't airtight I don't know if the cracks around the lid would qualify as an inlet opening.
quote:
A supply opening (duct/cowl) from the outside air (located on the
exterior surface of the boat), or from a ventilated compartment, or
from a compartment that is open to the outside air .

The earlier models without the dedicated compartment satisfied the requirement with the 2 cowles/vents.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 05/14/2015 04:34:30
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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  04:43:20  Show Profile
<< I don't know if the cracks around the lid would qualify >>

I think it is a designed slot in the upper right that is a vent ... I'll take a photo of it.


I believe The lip in the lid, on the right, that goes down into a trough comes up in the middle.. which leaves a gap between the lid and the trough. No gasket there.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 05/14/2015 04:47:15
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islander
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  04:54:20  Show Profile
Yea Ray I'm going to look today also but now I'm thinking what happens when you put cushions on the seats? Did you just inadvertently block the vent?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  05:30:02  Show Profile
<< Did you just inadvertently block the vent? >>

I don't think so .. It looked to me like the trough opens to the front and allows air through... Again I will have to look at it but I remember thinking it was an rather ingenious design aspect I had not noticed before. Every time before I had looked at the locker before I was thinking the it seemed kind of like a bomb with that one vent ...

Now I'm thinking I wouldn't want someone smoking on the port side aft...

Anyhoo.. I'll try to shut up now till I document it...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 05/14/2015 05:30:53
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Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  06:53:39  Show Profile
On our 1981, that area is open and outside. What's the issue?

Stu
1986 C34 #224 "Aquavite"
Cowichan Bay, BC Maple Bay Marina
(formerly San Francisco)
(formerly C25 #2459 "Capricorn Two")
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islander
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  07:02:04  Show Profile
quote:
On our 1981, that area is open and outside. What's the issue?

I guess there wouldn't be if yours didn't have a hinged cover enclosing the gas tank. The dedicated gas locker came with a cover.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  08:41:52  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by redeye

<< I don't know if the cracks around the lid would qualify >>

I think it is a designed slot in the upper right that is a vent ... I'll take a photo of it.


I believe The lip in the lid, on the right, that goes down into a trough comes up in the middle.. which leaves a gap between the lid and the trough. No gasket there.




I agree. I think any opening that allows fumes to vent to the outside conforms with the requirements of the last "bullet" in the rule. The lid on the C25 fuel locker has such openings. That provision doesn't require a "cowl." It merely requires an "opening" or a "duct to the atmosphere."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the lid have an opening where you put your fingers when you want to open the lid? Doesn't that opening lead into the fuel locker in a way that would enable fumes to escape?

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/14/2015 08:49:53
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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  09:48:16  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage
I agree with some of the other comments. The last two bullets of the quoted regs are fulfilled by the slot to outside air from the compartment my 1989 has for the portable plastic gas tank.

"A supply opening (duct/cowl) from the outside air (located on the
exterior surface of the boat), or from a ventilated compartment, or
from a compartment that is open to the outside air .
• An exhaust opening into another ventilated compartment or an
exhaust duct to the atmosphere . "

The slot at the bottom of the compartment into the cockpit area is definitely open to outside air. Also, the last bullet indicates an exhaust duct to the atmosphere but does not indicate how large that duct needs to be to comply with the regs. The fact is that the slot is way larger than the vent on the top of the gas tank.

I am also located in an area crawling with DC Harbor Patrols, Aux Coast Guard providing volunteer inspections and also USCG patrols. I have volunteered my boat for a Auxiliary Coast Guard inspection and have also been boarded by the USCG for one of their safety inspections and passed with flying colors. The Aux USCG also wanted to know if I wanted to sign up to be a member which I declined. More to that story but bottom line was no issues with safety gear, porta-potti and no issues with gas/venting.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/14/2015 09:57:01
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islander
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  14:48:42  Show Profile
Your right Larry. I looked today and actually there isn't a forward wall in the gas locker, Only the wall for the dumpster so I guess what ever air can pass through the space between the two lids is sufficient for the supply opening. Honestly no coasty has ever said anything about the locker to me and when I got my safety inspection on Tue. All he said was Oh an outboard that makes it easier. But just to show you that these so called inspectors don't know it all he was adamant about me not having a plaque for the overboard garbage. I told him the boat was 25ft and wasn't required unless you were 26ft or larger. He disagreed so being that I wanted the inspection sticker I wasn't going to argue about it. He gave me the sticker anyways but said for me to get the plaque. Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue. He also gave me a hard time about my nighttime S.O.S distress signal light, Told me that it doesn't qualify as a nighttime distress signal. You got to have flares he said. He's wrong again but I bit my tongue once more.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 05/14/2015 15:57:59
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sethp001
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 :  19:51:36  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by redeye

My vented tank with ETOH was causing the black mold to spread and it was coming up there.



I've been wondering about that mold!



Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/
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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 :  03:57:18  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by OLarryR

Very long...Not much interest to many and very much off topic !

Scott,

yes those inspections are...interesting ! The "more to the story" I mentioned was that the official USCG boarding/inspection was a piece of cake and actually joked around with them for awhile. They mentioned that I did not even have to have any flares on my boat since the river was narrower than the requirement to have flares ( believe that is either 1 or 2 miles). I wound up talking to them about their Honda Outboards. Then after they left, they re-appeared 10 minutes later and asked if I had been boarded this year - They were preparing to board me again ! But just as I was going to respond, they said they were just joking. They thought they left their training manual inside my cabin - which they did..and retrieved it. As they left, they said they would be back again in 10 minutes ! I told them they better not be late because I will already be in the marina very soon ! Great bunch of guys !!

But...the Auxiliary Coast Guard ...that was no 10 minute inspection. I think inspections is more of a hobby with them. I had just got on my boat with guests and was in a great mood when the Aux CG (2 women, though that has no bearing on anything) approached my dock and asked if I wanted an inspection. I said - sure ! This inspection took about a 1/2 hour and was much more than just checking requirements. They were offering advice, etc....and we really wanted to go out for the day. One was onboard with my guests, inspecting, while the other (the trainee) was on the finger slip with me ..watching. First they were looking for the capacity plate on the transom....I told them there was none but they could easily calculate the capacity by the dimensions of the boat using the regulation/formula. I also indicated that a sailboat with such a little cockpit area versus the size of the boat is rarely an issue with over capacity compared to an open hull boat that easily has more seating than capacity regs would allow and certainly 5 people on a 25 foot boat would not be an issue. She moved on to life jackets. I indicated that the regs do not require them on the seats but just that they are accessible and accessible is not really defined as some boaters have them way forward in their cabins. I indicated as she observed, that my life preservers were either in the cockpit with the addl ones right inside the companionway. That was acknowledged but then she indicated that I had the straps buckled and they should really be unbuckled. I indicated the regs dfo not state that requirement. Well....that's how things went on from there at which point, the trainee sort of whispered to me that I should not razz her up too much. Then after inspecting my boat, thoroughly, using up at least a 1/2 hour of out time, they then really wanted me to consider joining the Aux CG ! I thanked them for them inspection ! and thought to myself...that is the last time I volunteer for an inspection form the Aux CG. Passing comment There is a guy on our dock that his vessel is used as the Aux Coast Guard vessel...he gets a bunch of others onboard and sometimes I see them out there but not sure what they do. Anyway, I was talking to another on the dock the other day and they were telling me that the guy that owns the boat they put the Aux CG banner on), every time he returns to the finger slip, he cannot seem to master getting his boat into the slip and has on occasion had to ask for help ! That's just great...Hope I never need any help at least from him !

Okay one more piece of trivia - This something you guys probably do not have to deal with - I guess this was at least ~ 2 years ago, presidential inauguration day. Since it gets real crowded on that day in DC and they need to keep the various streets clear and maybe one or two other reasons, they give the federal workers in DC off that day. At least that has happened for as long as I can remember. So...I was off that day and it turned out to be a great day to go sailing. My boat is located on the Anacostia River sandwiched between Fort McNair (which borders the Washington Channel and the Potomac River) and the old USCG building (they recently vacated that building and believe moved to a new building not far away on the Bolling Air Force Base) and by the way, as the USCG personnel were completing their vacating of the building, that was also at the time they had the shootings on the Wash Navy yard and so approx. 2000 personnel from the WNY moved into the old USCG Hqtrs bldg. for approximately 1 1/2 years....but they are all back in the WNY again.

Anyway...back to the story-- So, it was a great Inaugeration (sunny) Day with good winds for sailing. As I start motoring out of my slip and pass the docks, I notice as I am approaching the fuel dock which you then exit the marina, there is a USCG bopat at the fuel doack and a bunch of sailors on the fuel dock. They yell out to me that I cannot go out sailing right now. The DC waters are closed off due to the Inaugeratio and I would have to wait several hours before the waters re-open. So, having not yet left the marina, I made a U-turn and returned to my finger slip on "C" Dock. As I start cleaning things up to depart, I notice a bunch of USCG sailors waiting at the "C" dock security gate. They obviously do not know the combination lock to open the gate. My slip is pretty dfar away from that gate but I thought I better let them in....and maybe they wanted to talk to me...which turns out they did want to talk to me !! They said that since I tried to leave the marina when the waterways in DC were closed to water traffic, they had to take down my name and driver's licensoe info. They indicated that once that data is forwarded (to who knows who) and logged in, it is eventually thrown out at the end of Inaugeration Day. I told them that I actually did not go on the waterways as I had turned around based on their prompting while I was still well within the marina. They said they were stll required to take down the info...which I obviously complied as they had the authority, outnumbered "me" and forget what weapons they had but all I had was my sailing cap. Okay...story is not yet over ! So....I stop on the way home at a Wendys in northern Va for lunch. When I getting ready to get back in my car, I get a phone call. It's the ...well some military head of the USCG. he indicates he is real glad he got a hold of me...he received my cell phone after reaching my spouse on my home phone. He indicates if he could not get in touch with me, he then would have had to tuen my name over to the whatever they call them...it just now escapes me...maybe the Secret Service ? Anyway, he indicates he wanted to re-check the drivers license number that I gave the sailors at my dock since my license number did not check out! He then indicates...okay that is fine ! The sailors recorded the number wrong ! He then re-iterated that at the end of the day, all my info will be erased and nothing kept. So...I learned my lesson...If I ever go to my boat on Inauguration Day....use the day for maintenance !


Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/15/2015 04:08:02
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islander
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 :  05:44:27  Show Profile
Great story, I was bordered by the CG a few years back and like you said they were polite courteous and quick. This inspection I had done on Monday was by either a CG Auxiliary or a Power squadron member. I forget which. I'm just a little dismayed at the lack of knowledge he had at knowing the rules. He actually seemed to get irritated when I tried to correct him. (By the way for you its 2 miles wide on a river) The guy was wrong on two items in my case but was so sure he was right he wouldn't even bother to check the book. After he left I checked the regulations just to double check that he was wrong and that's how I came across the gas tank locker thing and also know that its 2 miles on a river. Also as you said it seems they want to make suggestions and put their own little twists in on what you should have or do.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 :  09:34:17  Show Profile
<< I've been wondering about that mold! >>

http://munchies.vice.com/articles/kentuckys-whiskey-fungus-problem-is-out-of-control

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel
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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 :  15:34:50  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by redeye

<< I've been wondering about that mold! >>

http://munchies.vice.com/articles/kentuckys-whiskey-fungus-problem-is-out-of-control




Thanks Ray - fascinating stuff!



Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/
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Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/16/2015 :  06:50:36  Show Profile
Pity that the Vesssel Safety checkers, whether USCGAux or US Power Squadron (USPS) go around so poorly informed, or not up to date on the regs.
I'm the Commander of the Milford CT unit of the USPS and in our District (Eastern CT, Western RI) our VSC chairpersons hold regular reg reviews at our Conferences. They discuss just those issues. I brought up the deck gas tank issue with the chairman and he confirmed - no problem with the deck configuration.
My team consistently exceed 60 per season and given that, they see EVERYTHING power and sail! There are lots of kluges out there from auto ventilation, heads that dump directly overboard, nav lights that are home made to insane looking homemade life jackets. One guy had a flashlight attached to his inflatable pfd using a safety pin that went right through the inflating lining.
Sure there will be 100s of different "interpretations" of the regs due to anecdotal evidence but only one opinion counts: the local law enforcement agency's. The folks who are handing out the tickets.
I've found two things: 1. Maintain any documentary evidence - keep a copy of the regulation regarding any new technology aboard - as in Scott's case with the flashing visible signal instead of pyrotechnic flares. 2. Get your boat inspected and display your decal prominently. Most law enforcement are not looking for middle aged 25' sailboaters to harass - too many other "rich targets" around. Overloaded party boats, jet skis, dual 250hp speedsters.
But in conclusion I will say this - if you have a dink with an engine - that's a vessel. It needs everything a bigger boat needs : flares, sound producing devices, PDFs, decals, the works! I watched one day from my dock near a popular mooring field the coasties handing out tickets en masse to "casual" dinkers. They hit about 12 guys in the course of two hours. Big bucks! So beware.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/16/2015 06:53:12
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islander
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Response Posted - 05/16/2015 :  08:17:39  Show Profile
quote:
only one opinion counts: the local law enforcement agency's. The folks who are handing out the tickets.

And for that very reason I went out the next day and bought a 4 pack of flares. I'm not about to get into a pissin contest with them and will now show them what they want. I did print a copy of the non pyro alternatives and keep it onboard.
quote:
Regardless of exemptions, all boaters should be able to signal for help. Boaters must have current dated US Coast Guard-approved day and night signals for all boats operating on coastal and open bodies of water. Federal requirements are as follows:

For boats under 16’ in length: Distress signals are only required when operating between sunset and sunrise. If operating at night, one electric distress light or three combination day/night red flares are required.

For boats 16’ in length or greater: One orange distress flag and one electric distress light –or- three handheld or floating orange smoke signals and one electric distress light –or- three combination day/night red flares; handheld, meteor or parachute type.

Here's the real kick in the butt, I went by the inspectors houseboat(he's a liveaboard in my marina) the next day to show him the regulations and to show him that I had bought the flairs anyways but he wasn't around but on his own window was an inspection sticker dated 2012.....Really?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 05/16/2015 08:50:20
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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/17/2015 :  06:27:45  Show Profile
I looked at the locker yesterday and it vents across the top right, similar to my previous description.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel
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Tomas Kruska
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Response Posted - 06/01/2015 :  00:35:22  Show Profile  Visit Tomas Kruska's Homepage
I don't have the cockpit lockers vented on our new boat so I've invented a small hack - simply added the ventilation to our transportable tank. No more fumes in the locker... hope it's legal now?

It's all connected via quick connectors, so it's easy to remove the tank out of the boat for refill. That gas tank is 23 liters.






Dalpol Phobos 21, 2013, Sole Mio, hull #27, current adventures - We sail Phobos 21

PO of Catalina C25, 1978, High Anxiety, hull #701, SR, FK, L-dinette, inboard diesel Volvo Penta MD2010C w/saildrive - more info

Edited by - Tomas Kruska on 06/01/2015 00:38:21
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redeye
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Response Posted - 06/01/2015 :  09:50:03  Show Profile
Will gasoline spill out onto the transom on a tack? Venting the tank is not the problem, venting a compartment that holds a tank is the point.

If we had a compartment like that here in North Florida it would probably explode on a hot summer day. ( self combust ) If we leave our lighters in the car they explode.

Anyhoo.. the venting is to prevent fires, explosions in the event that the tanks or fuel lines leak, which they are known to do given the conditions a boat goes through.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel
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Voyager
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Response Posted - 06/01/2015 :  15:51:17  Show Profile
Ray,
Tomas' setup looks like a fully sealed tank, so by definition no vaporized fuel could possibly fill the locker, instead it appears to be vented to outside the hull. The only things that could go wrong are:
1. The tank could get wetted by gasoline while you're filling it, and if you put a wet tank in the locker, the vapors could build up, or
2. A hose or the tank or cap could leak. In this case, vapor could fill the locker and pose a problem.
Luckily, since the locker is not sealed and has passive ventilation, it's not a problem.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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redeye
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Response Posted - 06/02/2015 :  05:09:49  Show Profile
<< Tomas' setup looks like a fully sealed tank, so by definition no vaporized fuel could possibly fill the locker >>

Sweet.. I just have visions of other objects hitting and disconnecting that vent line and causing leaks. Those inboard tanks always make me nervous. We have a power boat with two inboard tanks, 30 and 40 gallons each and I always feel like I'm driving around with a bomb under me.


Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel
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