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Is This Barrier Coat?

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Kper
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Initially Posted - 04/23/2015 : 20:14:47

After a good pressure wash I took a putty knife and began scraping off what was left of the black, ablative bottom paint, which I discovered came off quite easily, in hopes of somehow switching to VC17. Can somebody explain these pictures? I'm guessing there is a barrier coat here but I am not educated enough in this area to know what I'm really looking at.

What you see in the second picture took me about 5 minutes.

The third picture is my attempt to sand a small area of the paint in the lower right of the effected area vs scraping. I discovered sanding was labor-some with less results.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/24/2015 : 12:03:22

It's hard to tell from the photos, but it's probably not barrier coat.

It looks like you're getting most of the old stuff off the quickest by scraping. The old stuff looks like an amalgamation of old antifouling paint caked with algae and dirt. The dirty whitish surface underneath looks like gelcoat. I'd suggest you remove the old, caked stuff in the easiest way, until the whole bottom looks like the dirty whitish area. Then I'd wipe it all down with something like acetone, to clean the surface. It doesn't have to be sparkling clean and white. Then examine the gelcoat, and, if you see lots of blisters, or large blisters, I'd repair them, apply a barrier coat, and then apply antifouling. If you don't see any blisters, I'd apply antifouling and go sailing.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Kper
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/24/2015 : 14:54:45

It sure looks like some kind of applied coating. Hard enough to scrape paint off of but with just enough pliability that I think I could get under it with some effort, although I'm sure it wouldn't come off easily.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/24/2015 : 20:46:34

Kyle
What's the nature of the base coat once you scrape it down? Is it hard and pitted, dusty and flakey or is it smooth?
If hard and pitted, it might be fine to sand with 80 grit sandpaper to give it "tooth", then wash with acetone and paint.
If dusty, you've got to scrape and sand that stuff off otherwise the paint won't stick.
If smooth, sand lightly, wash with acetone then paint.
Barrier coat is only needed if you see blisters. If small, paint barrier coat over. If the blisters are large you've got to burst and fill them, then 5-7 coats of barrier coat.
Trick is, you've got to start early in the day and paint it up all in the same day. Read the directions on the can.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/24/2015 : 20:50:49

Every time I'm tempted to strip down to bare fiberglass, I talk myself out of it. One of the key reasons is that I'm concerned with adhesion of the paint to the bare fiberglass. I've had certain spots on the boat that did not adhere, and by using some nasty isocyanate primer on the bare spots, I've been able to gradually eliminate any points of non-adhesion. It gets better every year. But I would NOT want to have to paint the whole hull with that nasty primer.

Once you have paint that is sticking well, I feel like your new paint is much more likely to stick to the old paint (as long as you sand to prevent excessive buildup). If you strip down to bare fiberglass, you might be starting over again with the adhesion issues.

I suspect that VC17 requires a bare hull for best results. But I'd be very tempted to figure out a way to smooth and fair your old paint without completely removing it. Then the new paint may be more likely to adhere, especially since you're having such a hard time scraping it off now.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/25/2015 06:39:11

Kper
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 05:04:16

Below is a close up view of the coating. After our purchase a year ago I had a knowledgable individual look at the boat to see if I had missed anything and he said I made a good purchase and couldn't find any issues. Sadly, that resource is gone but luckily I have the forum to help me out. I know I throw a lot of newbie questions out there but I really don't have anywhere else to turn. Fellow boaters at the marina seem less than interested/knowledgable.

After a closer look the coating appears to be very hard. I'm going to say at this point that I'm probably going to completely give up on the hard bottom paint hopes and throw more ablative on it. I would, however, like to know what this is. To be quite honest the boat is in great condition and truly turned out to be a diamond in the rough. We were fortunate.

Thank you for the input.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

islander
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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 05:15:56

Kyle, If your down to a good hard surface and all the flaking and chips are off I'd sand it smooth then put on 2 coats of a good ablative and go sailing. As to what that is, It's anybody's guess and very hard to tell from a photo.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/25/2015 05:20:40

Kper
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 06:31:17

Thanks, Scott. The good news is there is no flaking that I can find and the surface is smooth except where I scraped the paint off.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 06:37:55

quote:
Originally posted by Kper

"...After a closer look the coating appears to be very hard....

IMO hard is always better than soft. If what you have on the bottom is hard, you can put almost anything on top of it. If what you had on the bottom was soft, you'd have to remove it first (unless what you were putting on top was even softer). In theory soft would be easy to remove, but it would be very dusty/messy.

The problem with hard is that it is apparently rough. Could you smooth it with a coarser paper and an electric sander? Is it worth our trouble.

FWIW, I've had good luck with this inexpensive sander from Harbor Freight. It has a port that interfaces well with a Shop Vac, which does a good job containing the dust. You still need dust mask, goggles, etc.:

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 06:48:28

If only I could flip the boat and wet sand!

Thanks, Rick.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 07:15:14

No real reason you can't wet sand. I've wet sanded my boot stripe to eliminate the chalkiness (2000-4000 grit followed by polish, glaze, wax). Just a rubber sanding block and a bucket of detergent water.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/25/2015 12:22:14

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 07:49:49

I used to sand the hull, but have decided that it's better to not sand it. Every time you sand it, you remove some of the gelcoat. If you soda blast it, you'll remove very little material, and if you strip it chemically or strip it by scraping, you'll remove almost none of it. I strip mine chemically now. I have completely stripped 3 hulls, and never had to use a primer to get the antifouling to stick.

If the hull has been barrier coated at the factory, I would not sand it for any reason. Before stripping one of those hulls, I would suggest consulting Catalina for their recommendations on how best to do it.

When a new boat hull is constructed, wax is used as a release agent, so it will come out of the mold. If that wax is not completely removed before the bottom is painted, then antifouling paint won't stick to it. I have been fortunate to never have that problem, but I have been told that wiping the hull with acetone, after stripping the bottom, will usually remove the release agent.

If you apply a barrier coat, and then apply antifouling over it within the time period specified by the manufacturer of the barrier paint on the can's label, then you won't need to apply a primer. The barrier coat itself acts as the primer. If you don't apply the antifouling paint within the prescribed time, then you will need to apply a primer before you apply the antifouling.

Whenever I need to sand off old antifouling paint, I always wet sand it. When you wet sand, the sandpaper doesn't load up. The water rinses the paint residue out of the sandpaper. Also, instead of holding up the weight of a power tool, all you have to hold up is your hand and a piece of sandpaper. It's much less tiring. Wet sanding under the hull isn't as messy as it might seem. When you rinse the hull with the hose, most of the water stays attached to the hull, and runs down the keel, instead of dripping onto you. If you wait briefly before you crawl under the hull, it will stop dripping fairly quickly. Of course, you should wear old long pants, a long sleeve shirt, and a hat or cap. The best benefit of wet sanding is that you don't inhale that toxic dust or have to wear a mask, and you don't get the dust in your eyes and skin pores. Any residue that drips onto you will rinse off easily in the shower.

When I wet sand, I buy green-colored sanding disks at West Marine. They're round and 8-9 inches in diameter, and cost about $4-5 each, but I only used 2 to do a lot of sanding on my C&C 35 several years ago. If you fold one in half, it will fit your hand nicely. I don't even use a sanding block with it. An old time marina worker told me about them, and they work great.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/25/2015 07:58:19

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 11:46:41

Also, when wet-sanding as Steve describes, wear some heavy-duty rubber gloves with the cuffs folded back (to keep water from running down your arm). The toxicity of bottom paint can be absorbed through the skin.

I like to use a pole-sander, like this, with a short broom stick--essentially a sanding block on a swiveling handle. That keeps my hands free of what's coming off, and makes reaching some places easier.

You can check Interlux's compatibility tables, but my recollection is that VC-17 can't go on top of anything but barrier coat or some appropriate primer--no other kind of paint. My vote would be to scrape whatever is flaking off, lightly sand whatever is tight, and put an ablative on it. (I suggest a water-based ablative like Hydrocoat, which I suspect is less likely to soften the underlying paint.) One coat should be fine for one season on a sailboat--two will get you at least two years with no more than touch-ups in between.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/25/2015 11:54:27

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 15:24:16

Well, too late on the rubber glove advice. Good news is I only sanded a small area for about 15 minutes.

I'll get cleaned up and share my interesting results shortly.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 16:04:24

Kyle, when you go to choose an Ablative paint get a "multi season paint". Stay away from "season to season" like Interlux ACT. They are only good for one season and you would have to repaint next year. This can lead to a lot of paint build up. Not what you want. Ablative paint can be applied over most other antifouling paints provided the old coating is tightly adhered and in sound condition. Everybody has their favorite paint so I won't recommend any specific paint. Many of the pricier paints IMO don't outperform of last any longer that middle of the road paint.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/25/2015 16:09:27

Kper
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 16:07:48

Ok, cleaned up. Dave's post made me a bit nervous so I hit the shower.

I mentioned earlier that when we first purchased the boat we had a knowledgeable friend take a look at the boat. His knowledge came from sailboat ownership for several decades combined with his experience as a new/used sailboat dealership owner who also performed repairs. I pointed out to him the small "pock" marks near the waterline and that I was concerned that they may be blisters. He said in his opinion they weren't blisters but he was unsure exactly what they might be. A fellow boat owner at the marina said.... (remember, I wasn't too sure what to think about those folks in my marina)... that he thought he had seen that before from improperly grounded shore power at docks. These marks appear just below the waterline and are slightly worse on starboard. Another thing I noticed is that the rough coating travels bow to stern spanning an area about 1-1/2 inches in height. At the stern where the boot stripe gets thicker, so does this course coating. It easily sands smooth but was rougher at the boot stripe as though prior sanding lower had smoothed it out.

Edit: I'm using 320 grit paper... to fine or course?

Opinions on the marks? It looks like smooth gelcoat in those marks. Prior repairs?

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 04/25/2015 16:08:51

islander
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Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 16:39:47

#320 is way to fine. 80 grit is normal for preparing a bottom. You need some roughness for the new paint to grip to. As far as those marks that too could be just about anything from a bad prep job and someone just painted over the barnacle rings to the old paint getting water behind it and lifting it up in bubbles. If they aren't craters and are smooth then I wouldn't worry to much about them. Ahhh.. The mystery of the history...

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/25/2015 16:42:46

Kper
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 06:05:22

Another lesson learned.

Steve Milby, you may be correct. I'm discovering what initially appeared to be very hard 1-1/2" wide layer is sanding off with very little effort and is brown in color. I'll mask off the boot stripe to help from hitting it with sandpaper.

Scott, I may be going at it all wrong but since the only store nearby who sells wet/dry 80 grit is closed today I'll complete the bottom with the 320 today and scuff next weekend with the 80 for paint.

I'll be using West Marine's CPP, if anyone else uses that I'd be interested in any tips. I was going to lay down tarps in the drive and paint what I can before heading to the hoist at the marina.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 04/26/2015 06:06:27

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 12:15:07

quote:
I'll be using West Marine's CPP

CPP is a single season paint (season to season), Use it if you like painting every year and the year after that and the year after that... Also once you take the boat out of the water with a single season paint it stops working and does not re-activate when you put the boat back in so that means no short hauls or trailering it anywhere.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/26/2015 12:23:02

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 13:18:12

quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
I'll be using West Marine's CPP

CPP is a single season paint (season to season), Use it if you like painting every year and the year after that and the year after that... Also once you take the boat out of the water with a single season paint it stops working and does not re-activate when you put the boat back in so that means no short hauls or trailering it anywhere.

I agree that it is single season paint, and OP should consider whether it's a false economy. I know that by the time I'm done painting, I'd pay double or triple for a paint that would last 3 or 4 years.

However, I have seen nothing in the manufacturers' recommendations that hauling and drying leads to de-activiation of CPP. That's usually true of hard paints, but this is a very soft ablative. In fact, I believe that its softness is a primary reason why it only lasts one season. [EDIT: Oops, I was wrong. Disregard the strikethrough stuff.]

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/26/2015 18:56:09

islander
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Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 14:49:00

quote:
However, I have seen nothing in the manufacturers' recommendations that hauling and drying leads to de-activiation of CPP

From West Marine..

A single-season alternative to copolymer ablatives such as PCA
Gold is CPP Antifouling Paint with CCT, which offers the advantage
of controlled wearing, but unlike copolymer ablatives, loses
its effectiveness when exposed to air.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 15:13:16

Oops, I had looked hard for that information and could find nothing about it. Glad I didn't go with CPP.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 15:43:55

quote:
I agree that it is single season paint, and OP should consider whether it's a false economy.

I agree totally Rick, Price wise its tempting but if you have to buy it every year does it really pay off? Do I really want to paint the bottom every year? Do I really want that much paint building up? Cross my fingers that I don't have to haul the boat for a repair? It's a no- Brainer to me but then again thats just my opinion and thats all we can give on this forum.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 18:43:25

I'm sure glad I mentioned CPP. I was only going to use it because the PO had a can that he gave with the purchase.

Can I get some recommendations on what might be best for my situation? I splash in around May/June and haul out in September where it sits on the trailer indoors.

I'd prefer to ask here instead of a retailer. I called once and was given so many different choices that all it did was confuse me even more.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2015 : 19:58:03

This is kind of a replay... WM's PCA Gold is a good ablative paint that I've used. By my understanding, it's actually a Pettit Ultima paint re-branded. Like most ablatives, it is not affected by haul-outs and winter storage, so if there's enough paint remaining, you can launch the next year. More typically, some touch-up is required, with a full coat every couple of years.

I really like Pettit Hydrocoat SR, which is water-based ablative and includes slime protection (different from animal-growth protection). It can go on top of almost anything that's tight to the hull without loosening it, since it doesn't contain hydrocarbon solvents. It doesn't gas you as you work, and you can clean yourself and other things up with water. On my $+!nkp*+, it lasts as well as anything I've used after a season of traveling at speeds your boat will never approach!

I have no connection to the company or any of its agents...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Ape-X
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/27/2015 : 03:41:07

could be VC tar, an old barrier paint used beneath VC-17...

s/v No Worries, O'Day 28
PO Moe'Uhane - C25 SR/FK #1746

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