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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Old window frames

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stang9150
Navigator

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USA
138 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/17/2015 : 22:40:35

Do the old style window frames give any type of structural support to the cabin top? I see people have retrofitted lexan style windows in the older boats.

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2015 : 04:35:19

Good question Stang. No, they only provide support of the sealing channel to the glass. There are many documented projects showing replacement with plastic using only adhesive (Dow 795?) which also gives a more updated look to the C25. Share pics of your project as you go!

s/v No Worries, O'Day 28
PO Moe'Uhane - C25 SR/FK #1746

stang9150
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USA
138 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2015 : 09:18:07

Thanks for the information!

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2015 : 09:40:36

Thinking of doing the same project, so I second Ape-X's request to share pics as you go.

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2015 : 10:24:50

there are plenty of shared projects on re-building. Catalina direct sells the kit which includes new seals, & sealant. I did not rebuild before selling, so based on a friends info, he used 2x the sealant they suggest, then wipe clean.

s/v No Worries, O'Day 28
PO Moe'Uhane - C25 SR/FK #1746

Kim Luckner
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2015 : 17:13:02

I agree that you shouldn't be to quick to overboard the aluminum frames. The resealing kit from CD works and isn't that hard. More fussy work than difficult. If you decide to remove the frames remember 2 things, there is an after market for the frames and you still have to finish the cut-out in the cabin after you've decided to go to Plexiglas. Mine were resealed and while the still leak it's a lot less and they still look nice inside and out.

Seeadler
'79 C25 SR/FK #1432
Mentor Lagoons

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2015 : 21:59:52

quote:
Originally posted by Kim Luckner

...and you still have to finish the cut-out in the cabin after you've decided to go to Plexiglas...

When I re-installed the windows in my 1980 I discovered that the gap between the outer shell of the cabin trunk and the inner liner shell was quite inconsistent. Screwing the inner trim ring of the window assembly to the outer frame draws the two shells together. Without that clamping action you would have to devise an alternate method to bridge the gap that maintains a consistent reveal around the inside of the window without it standing off the inner shell in places where the gap is thin.

BTW, I had my frames powder-coated and they look a lot nicer. Powder coating is a good finish for this purpose where it's not subject to much abrasion and the tolerances are loose enough that the coating thickness is not an issue. I went dark bronze, but it was tempting to add a dash of "look-at-me" color. One could create an eye-catching accent with the wide range of colors available in powder-coating. It's something to consider...

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

stang9150
Navigator

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USA
138 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2015 : 23:08:18

I already redid mine with the cd kit which worked ok. The po before me did a horrible job I spent 8 hours a window cleaning silicone off the frames. He also filled the gap between the outer part of the boat and inner with great stuff expanding foam, not a great idea. I cleaned it all out and installed 1/8 inch plywood in the gaps, clamped and glued overnight. This gives the frame something solid to tighten up against. Mine leak now around the window channel gasket, much better than before though.

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2015 : 20:18:08

OK, not sure where this thread is headed, and I don't want to hijack it, but I'm still trying to figure out what I should do with my own leaky windows. I've been looking at some of the old posts, and there seems to be a split of opinion regarding upgrade to the frameless acrylic upgrades vs: aluminum framed replacements for the existing 1978 windows.

My situation is that the windows were replaced with new lenses, but the aluminum frames are badly dinged up, and there is a caulking mess on the exterior. Not sure what the caulk was, but it was poorly applied, looks pretty bad, and some of the windows stlll leak - one badly.

So, I like the idea of retrofitting with the newer style acrylic, but I don't find a source, or reference, for finding the interior trim that dresses the gap that would exist between the lens and the interior cabin surface. In the alternative, I could try removing and re-installing the existing windows, either with existing frames or new ones. I think I would use butyl tape as a sealant if I go that route.
I'm open to any suggestions on this project. I've got a couple of months before I get back to the boat, so there's no rush to find a quick solution - but I do have to resolve the leaking proble, and this seems to be a logical place to seek opinions for that issue....

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 07:38:13

Jerry cruising concepts make window kits for out boats. It comes with everything you need but is pricey.

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 10:05:14

Saw those kits, Panhead, but the price did put me on "pause." I may end up going that route if there isn't a good, less expensive option...

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 15:01:09

I thought of cutting the windows myself but you would still have to come up with a trim ring for the inside

Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 18:43:06

I am redoing my windows and am very satisfied with what CD sent me, I made one change and I am embedding my windows in butyl tape. It is cheap and comes recommended by many.
Jan

Jan Briede
Beagle
1979 TR #1242 FK
L-Dinette
Yorktown, VA
Blog -- http://vanomad.blogspot.com/

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2015 : 09:37:45

I remembered a member who was excellent at woodworking an had made the trim rings you are talking about. Took a while but I found the photos. Members name is or was 'mrapkins' These are the photos https://picasaweb.google.com/mrapkins/BoatWork#

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2015 : 10:14:24

Those frames are drop-dead beautiful, Scott. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near that kind of skilled woodworker, so I am inclining toward the aluminum frame solution Jan is doing with the butyl tape substitution. BTW, Jan, I like your blog and enjoyed your entry on the re-bedding project. I also used to live in Virginia, so I was surprised by the pictures of your boat frozen into the salt (brackish?) water at your yacht club. Made me appreciate my Wisconsin pole-barn berth for the winter...

At any rate, I will be very interested in any additional info on your progress, surprises, successes, or other info on this project. I won't have access to my boat until May, so any advance info is useful info at this point.

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2015 : 07:12:11

Thanks for the kind words Jerry.
It has been a cold winter for us Virginians. We were actually sailing two weeks ago, but now the boats are in ice and they were covered in snow. It is an amazing sight to see your boat stuck in ice, especially this close to the ocean. Salt water freezes at 28.4 degrees and an infra red thermometer showed the ice was 28 degrees.
Hopefully this is the last of it and we can go out sailing again in the next few weeks.

Jan Briede
Beagle
1979 TR #1242 FK
L-Dinette
Yorktown, VA
Blog -- http://vanomad.blogspot.com/

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 08:14:29

quote:
Originally posted by panhead1948

I thought of cutting the windows myself but you would still have to come up with a trim ring for the inside

I really prefer the updated look but, unlike Scott, wood and I get along like oil and water. For now I am going without interior trim and it looks ok although unfinished. Mine were done by the PO.

Panhead, I'd say update your windows and worry about the trim later.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 09:32:14

Boat and dog both look pretty good here, Kyle!

Couple of questions: Do you have any closer, or more detailed, photos of the window's interior appearance? Secondly, are the lenses attached with screws or just adhesive?

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

Edited by - pearson39b on 03/02/2015 09:34:53

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 10:08:29

quote:
Couple of questions: Do you have any closer, or more detailed, photos of the window's interior appearance? Secondly, are the lenses attached with screws or just adhesive?

First, his boat is a 1986. It did not have the window frames like the earlier boats. The acrylic was originally sealed to the boat and also had screws. I replaced them on my '87 model and just used Dow 795 adhesive just like they use on current models.

Here is my window replacement:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=23031

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 11:34:05

Exactly what I was looking for Davy J! I was not aware of the depression around the exterior cabin opening on these earlier models, and I really like the finished look here. A bit apprehensive about the blocking needed to hold the acrylic in place, but I don't see a more elegant solution at this point.

I'm also curious about how well that Dow adhesive clean up. Is it as big a hassle as silicon is?

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 11:44:27

I'm not sure, but I don't think boats manufactured before 1986 had the depression around the exterior part of the windows. Just the cut-out for the aluminum frames.

Dow 795 is a silicone building adhesive. I don't remember it being difficult to clean up. However, I masked any areas that I did not want to get the adhesive on.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 14:08:04

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

First, his boat is a 1986. It did not have the window frames like the earlier boats.

My bad.
I had no idea the windows were original.

Edit:
Davy, my windows have no screws, they appear to be attached using only adhesive that is not visible anywhere. The windows are also flush with the exterior gelcoat (no edges above the gelcoat) and appear to be resting in a recess. I may run to the boat to verify that claim.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 03/02/2015 14:14:22

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 14:36:12

Davy J, you were spot on about the screws. How could I have missed those?! Chances are I knew they were there all along but my aging memory round-filed that info.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2015 : 15:34:13

My 87 has the screws but I think Catalina stopped using the screws in later years relying on the Dow 795 to hold them in place. They install windows on skyscrapers with that stuff.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2015 : 12:30:25

I'm pretty sure my 1978 windows are not set into a recessed area on the cabin exterior, which raises a question of whether or not a frameless, adhesive-only solution would work as well as it does on the newer, recessed window installations. It just seems there might be a greater chance of a line catching the edge of the lens and loosening the adhesive's hold.

That said, the problem - of finding a relatively inexpensive interior trim solution - is making the do-it-yourself frameless option, with or without screws, appear less feasible at the moment. The Cruising Concepts kit is out of my budget range, so it looks like I need to focus on trying to remove the existing frames without damage, and re-installing them with better sealing than the last guy used...

In the meantime, if anyone knows of a source for a less expensive option on the interior trim for frameless windows, or a source for new frames, please give me a shout.

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

Edited by - pearson39b on 03/04/2015 12:31:35

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2015 : 18:20:51

Another option is to have a nice cover made for the cabin top and leave the windows alone. Protects the gelcoat, protects the teak, keeps the rain out, and is a lot easier than trying to get a good seal on the older style metal frames.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

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