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Aft Port side Cleat

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theshepirate
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/02/2015 : 17:33:29

Hi everyone! What a way to spend a snow day-planning our boat fixes!
Our Aft Port side cleat is loose. Has anyone ever fixed this problem?
Is it easy to get to or do we have to install an access port. We have a '78- 25' Catalina Fin Keel. We have an outboard motor, and the access is through the dumpster, above the shelf for the fuel can.
Thanks for any help/ photos you can give

TheShePirate

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2015 : 19:40:45

Haven't needed to do this repair myself but I would simply start by removing the cleat and assessing the damage. See if there is any structural damage and if not, reseal (or bed it) to the deck using all new stainless hardware and washers. The more support you can give by spreading the load out the better. Another more intensive repair(if there is damage, or even not) would be to cut a backing plate of metal or simply treated wood and epoxy it to the underside with bolts.

As they say... My 2cents is worth that

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2015 : 05:30:58

Any time I go through the deck I drill an oversize hole and fill with epoxy then drill the correct hole, bed and secure fasteners. Typically I use duck tape on the bottom to keep the epoxy from running through.

I hope that area is not to difficult to get to as I am planning to install spinnaker blocks back there.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2015 : 05:31:36

<< The more support you can give by spreading the load out the better >>

IMHO of course...

Not really .. The boat is laid up really well there and the resin/glass is so thick that a normal sized washer will do the job. If you get anything larger than that as backing, and you had a a big enough storm to damage it, you will just tear out an area so large that it will be difficult to repair.

I don't know how to get to that cleat inside, my design is different. If you can get to it, ( and I imagine you can ) remove the bolts, drill it out, fill the area with resin ( I recommend Gflex ), redrill and add your cleat with a bedding compound like Boat life.

Mine ( that same cleat ) is on the to do list ever since I bought the boat but I've not been up for the dumpster contortions just yet.

Also look at your docking lines and see if that line is not balanced ( too short ) and is causing excessive pull on that cleat.

You might connect all your docking lines on your boat with the loop on the cleat and run your lines under the dock cleats without cleating them and push the boat around to get all the lines pulling in unison. Cleating at the dock once they are lengths that work in unison.

Like the port bowline working with the aft strtbrd springline and fenders should be working in conjunction with the strbrd dockline..

If the aft strbrd dockline is too short and is working alone it will pull out your aft cleat.

I can't tell you how many boaters on my inland lake don't get this concept and wonder why their cleats pull out in a storm. No so much at the beach....

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2015 : 05:59:14

When I replaced my cleats I physically got into the dumpster. After that, replacing the cleat became a two person job. That was probably the easiest cleat to get at.

Replacing the old cleats was a terrific upgrade. Wrapping multiple lines on the new cleats was now possible. You can read my original thread about it here:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=22816&SearchTerms=cleat

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2015 : 22:41:03

Ray,

Are you saying you don't put the biggest washers reasonable to back things? Seems silly, and if your ripping a huge chunk out from overloading or something wouldn't it have been more probable with less distribution of weight? Pounds per square inch comes to mind here. Ask any engineer and they will overbuild whenever possible. Until the owners need the budget shaved.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2015 : 04:54:23

<< Are you saying you don't put the biggest washers reasonable to back things? >>

I think you sometimes have one cleat that for whatever reason has too much pressure in it in a storm. If it fails the boat remains in place but the one cleat fails.

I kinda want any single cleat to pull out completely leaving just the holes the washers make as they pull out. You are leaving the structural integrity around the area intact. Easy to make a repair.

If you put in big backing blocks they may not tear out but you end up destroying the area around the cleat, or more often they go ahead and tear out and destroy the area.

I'd say the most common thing that happens is one cleat get wallowed out after a bad storm. The cleat gets pulled halfway out, the bolts are bent and the washer size designed by Catalina for the boat digs into the inside of the deck. You can drill it out and add resin and re-seat the cleat. If you had bigger washers or backing blocks the whole area gets cracked and damaged which is a much harder repair. much harder to get back the strength of the laid fiberglass mat in the area.

This would be on a boat like the Catalina, that is laid up so thick.

Another thinnner hull or deck and you would might want bigger washers or backing blocks. Then again it would probably have similar results.

You put bigger washers or backing blocks on a fitting that you never expect to get pulled out, like the engine mount for instance..

Anyhoo... IMHO

I've seen cleats pull that it was a relatively easy fix afterwards, and I've seen others that looked like the area would never be able to be properly repaired..

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2015 : 08:22:08

I think I'd prefer to risk fixing what might be a larger hole(if it failed) there than the the huge one in the side of the hull from repeatedly slamming into the dock in a big storm.

"Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site."

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2015 : 21:27:22

quote:
Originally posted by hewebb

Any time I go through the deck I drill an oversize hole and fill with epoxy then drill the correct hole, bed and secure fasteners. Typically I use duck tape on the bottom to keep the epoxy from running through.

Excellent advice here. I heard it early, and use it every time. It takes time, but your results pay off in years of a watertight deck with solid attachments.

Fender washers and flat washers (at the least) or backing plates (oh, yeah!) are what racers use.

I had a friend with a Ranger 30 that put Barient triple-speed 40 winches as primaries. (They overhung the combing by an inch on either side. Yeah, they are that big.) He used a 1/4" aluminum backing plate. That boat liked the 155 into the upper teens. (Which in racer speak means we don't pull it down until 21+ ... true.) A stack of wraps on those huge barients must have put colossal loads, but they held. He sailed that boat hard - really hard.

YMMV, but the epoxy sleeved hole is a must in my book. Backing plates are a great idea as well.

Matt

former Captain of Heartbeat
Catalina 25 Tall
#4816

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2015 : 21:36:53

quote:
Originally posted by theshepirate

Our Aft Port side cleat is loose.

Oh, jeebus. That one is tough to get to, and I have not done it. (Sorry the thread got sidetracked.)

Take a calm day and clear out that area. I would think you should be able to get to it with a socket on a long extension while laying down in the port storage area. Have SWMBO use an impact driver on the phillips heads while you hold the nut. That should work. (So says the guy that hasn't done it! Still, I have done the stern pulput bolts back there and that worked for me.)

Sleeve them with epoxy and add the largest washers or backing plates you can get. Seal them with your choice of 4200 or 5200 and call yourself a rock star ... which you will be at this point.

Matt

former Captain of Heartbeat
Catalina 25 Tall
#4816

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2015 : 21:51:06

When I inadvertently tested my lifeline and stanchions that were backed with washers against a dock, five bolts bent and three broke as two stanchions bent. There was a little frayed glass on the bending side of the bolt holes that was easy to dremel and backfill with epoxy, but there was no significant damage to the layup. Stronger doesn't hurt, but there is a point that it doesn't really help. The weakest link fails.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2015 : 05:16:30

<< SWMBO use an impact driver on the phillips heads while you hold the nut. >>

Another method ( especially if you hafta do it alone ) is to clamp the botton of the bolt with locking pliers and turn the nut with a wrench.

Wrench over the nut, then lock the pliers on the bottom of the bolt. trying to not to disturb the threads or as little as possible. After you get it started you can raise the bolt some and lock the top of the bolt and put a socket on the nut for more torque or continue with the wrench.

Additional techniques are cut the sides of the screw head with a dremel tool and cutting off the bolt completely with the dremel if your threads get to damaged at the bottom of the screw and the nut will not come off.

Maybe I'll get off my but and do that this weekend. I've been putting mine off for about 10 years.... Wonder if the Gflex will kick in 56 degree weather???? ( after about 10 hours I bet )

I'll hafta start the day off with yoga stretches ...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 02/05/2015 05:18:25

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2015 : 05:26:41

<< When I inadvertently tested my lifeline and stanchions that were backed with washers against a dock, five bolts bent and three broke as two stanchions bent. >>

We had a "Wind Event" ( tornado ) and I had one cleat that pulled about 1/4 out. Bent the bolts but did not break. Wallered out the holes.

Destroyed one finger on the dock and damaged several other boat close by.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2015 : 10:19:45

quote:
Wonder if the Gflex will kick in 56 degree weather???? ( after about 10 hours I bet )

Just did that with 650. it was close to 60� and it jelled in about 2 hours and was cured when i went back the next afternoon.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

theshepirate
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2015 : 22:01:12

Thanks everyone for all your advice, it will surely help when spring work begins!!
Ciao for now!
Theshepirate

quote:
Originally posted by redeye

<< The more support you can give by spreading the load out the better >>

IMHO of course...

Not really .. The boat is laid up really well there and the resin/glass is so thick that a normal sized washer will do the job. If you get anything larger than that as backing, and you had a a big enough storm to damage it, you will just tear out an area so large that it will be difficult to repair.

I don't know how to get to that cleat inside, my design is different. If you can get to it, ( and I imagine you can ) remove the bolts, drill it out, fill the area with resin ( I recommend Gflex ), redrill and add your cleat with a bedding compound like Boat life.

Mine ( that same cleat ) is on the to do list ever since I bought the boat but I've not been up for the dumpster contortions just yet.

Also look at your docking lines and see if that line is not balanced ( too short ) and is causing excessive pull on that cleat.

You might connect all your docking lines on your boat with the loop on the cleat and run your lines under the dock cleats without cleating them and push the boat around to get all the lines pulling in unison. Cleating at the dock once they are lengths that work in unison.

Like the port bowline working with the aft strtbrd springline and fenders should be working in conjunction with the strbrd dockline..

If the aft strbrd dockline is too short and is working alone it will pull out your aft cleat.

I can't tell you how many boaters on my inland lake don't get this concept and wonder why their cleats pull out in a storm. No so much at the beach....

TheShePirate

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2015 : 05:24:10

quote:
Originally posted by redeye

We had a "Wind Event" ( tornado ) and I had one cleat that pulled about 1/4 out. Bent the bolts but did not break. Wallered out the holes.

Destroyed one finger on the dock and damaged several other boat close by.

Ouch, I bet that hurt!

Paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2015 : 08:16:47

<< ouch... >>

When I bought my boat the DPO had short lines on the winches after one of the cleats had pulled completely out..

My boat didn't get much damage from that storm, the worst being from my dockmates boat coming loose and whacking up on mine. Fortunately it just scratched up the gelcoat some, no damage to the hull to deck jont.. THen my next boatmate was using 2 short nylon dock lines without spring lines. Duh...

Nice boat

But really... you think that is gonna hold???

He no longer has a boat next to me...

I use double bow lines, spring lines, horizontal fenders, and double stern lines. My slip is not that protected and we also get some big waves from large boat traffic. The lines are loops dropped over the boat cleats, except for one end each of the fender lines, which are cleated at the boat, on top of other lines and serve to additionally hold them on.

So far no troubles.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 02/08/2015 08:48:06

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2015 : 08:40:15

<< ouch wind event >>

I was very fortunate... and these are not even the boats that were removed before I got back to see the damage..

mine just behind this one...

May of 2009.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

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