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main or genoa alone

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dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/17/2014 : 08:28:46

Question. Under main alone, I cant point very high, and cannot come about. However under genoa alone I can come fairly close to the wind,and can tack through the wind. This is the opposite of what I would expect. I would think with only the main with the center of effort so far aft that I would weathervane, but it does not happen. I know that it is a headsail driven boat, but I dont expect it to handle this way. Anyone else have the same experience? Anyone with an explanation? BTW same handling with the swing keel boat I used to have.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 08:55:20

At low speeds, a keelboat drifts more to leeward than at higher speeds. As boat speed increases, pointing ability increases. A masthead rigged sailboat with only a mainsail can't generate as much boat speed as one with a genoa alone. As windspeed increases, boat speed of a keelboat under mainsail alone will increase, and it's pointing ability will improve. But, a sloop is designed to be most efficient with a balanced sail plan, including both a mainsail and jib. Neither sail, alone, will point as well as a sloop with two sails, because each sail contributes in different ways to the overall result. The jib generates boat speed, and the mainsail helps force the stern to leeward, which consequently drives the bow to windward.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/17/2014 10:28:58

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 08:59:14

so maybe the fact that so much drive is created by our headsails that the main alone cannot generate the speed to obtain the necessary lift?

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
Captain

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USA
279 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 09:13:16

This is an interesting topic. When the winds are seriously high (20kts+), I have on occasion gone out with just the storm jib or just my mainsail. I have not experienced any of the issues that you are alluding to with sailing with just the main. The boat doesn't move as quickly, however once I allow the boat to get up some speed, I don't have an issue with tacking. I do have to make sure there is some forward movement to tack.

Sailing with just the storm jib, is a different challenge as the boat will pull itself around and tends to want to fall off the new tack much more quickly requiring that I maintain some speed in order to keep up a close hauled heading.

I prefer to sail with both, the storm and the mainsail in order to balance the boat more effectively.

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 11/17/2014 09:15:54

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 12:35:23

When I had my ODay 23, in heavy wind and going with just the main or main reefed, it was extremely hard or not able to tack due to the water action and not making enough speed to come through the tack. Sailing the Cat 25, I do not seem to have that problem when sailing with just the main. Using just the Genoa and furled, I maintained a much higher speed and could easily come through a tack but as indicated above, initially coming about the boat would fall off the tack considerably before trimming the sail and eventually getting close hauled to the new tack.

Sometimes I will go out with just the main when I do not want to bother that much with trimming the sail and makes life a lot easier...if trying to down a sandwhich, etc while sailing. Other times in heavy wind, I will go out with the genoa furled....then makes life a lot easier when coming back to the marina. I can just furl the sail and come into the marina with my outboard not having to tie up the main to the boom.

Going with a furled main and furled genoa is the best for sailing and most controlled...but sometimes just to lazy to rig the main for reefing. I generally do not have the lines ready set for reefing. If I did...then perhaps I would go with this option more often.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 13:31:30

Genoa size also comes into play as I found performance under headsail alone was better with my previous 150 than my current 135.

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 14:28:04

same experience as Don: With the 150 out all the way, the center of effort moved aft, providing a more balanced boat. Furled in some, and the nose would fall off.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 15:11:25

One mistake I've seen sailors make--something that is more critical under one sail than two--is oversteering on a tack. If you suddenly push the tiller over past about 45 degrees, the rudder suddenly becomes more of a brake than a rudder. Years ago I learned from watching Dennis Connor to start the turn somewhat gradually and come out of it gradually, so the rudder isn't working too hard against the boat's motion and the momentum is maintained. And I generally avoid going past 45 degrees of helm (except when I'm also steering with the running outboard). Wheel steering systems generally can't even turn that far. If you hear a lot of turbulence from the rudder, you're likely to be oversteering and slowing the boat.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/17/2014 15:13:12

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2014 : 16:29:38

Mine acts the same way, in crazy wind I usually go jib alone. The boat seems to sail better.

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2014 : 04:36:56

I tried something a couple of weeks ago and it seemed to work well. Wind was sufficient to think about a reef so I decided to try reefing the main and leaving the 150 out all the way. It seemed to work well. We then rigged a barber hauler on the jib and pulled in the clew some and it helped as well. Made my wing keel point a little better.

I have in the past gone out for a quick sail with just the jib-too lazy to uncover the main and hoist. Don't remember how well she sailed. But I was out on the water and moving.

I am still in the learning mode when it comes to sail trim.

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Akenumber
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2014 : 18:49:40

Thanks for that reply Dave. I probably tend to over steer and will watch out for that in the future.

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dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2014 : 09:02:45

howard, where do you rig the barber hauler to?

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pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2014 : 21:10:13

Some interesting experience and insights here. But I have to offer one caveat about the practice of sailing under a genoa alone. On a small boat like the C-25, you probably won't ever get in trouble. But if you move up to a bigger boat, there can be an issue, particularly on a downwind sail in a sneaky, building wind. If you're under genoa alone, you can get to a point where it is impossible to furl in the jib without stressing the forestay because you have no mainstay to blanket and depower the foresail. That leaves you with the risky option of powering into the wind and dealing with flailing sheets, which can be downright dangerous. I've had my glasses torn off and seen stars after being whacked by one. Amazing the power of a whipping sheet...

Just saying...

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2014 : 04:38:54

quote:

howard, where do you rig the barber hauler to?

Used a Cunningham hook in the clew and ran line to the opposite side cabin top winch.

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Landshark
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 17:36:46

quote:
Originally posted by pearson39b

Some interesting experience and insights here. But I have to offer one caveat about the practice of sailing under a genoa alone. On a small boat like the C-25, you probably won't ever get in trouble. But if you move up to a bigger boat, there can be an issue, particularly on a downwind sail in a sneaky, building wind. If you're under genoa alone, you can get to a point where it is impossible to furl in the jib without stressing the forestay because you have no mainstay to blanket and depower the foresail. That leaves you with the risky option of powering into the wind and dealing with flailing sheets, which can be downright dangerous. I've had my glasses torn off and seen stars after being whacked by one. Amazing the power of a whipping sheet...

Just saying...

Very good point (and incite!).

And this brings me to a question, what's the best way to bring down a jib in the wind? Naturally, the thought of pointing into the wind comes to mind, but like you said it causes the jib to flail wildly in moderate/heavy winds (it also takes a bit of skill to keep the boat pointing into the wind for too long, before the wind pushes it sideways).

Any good advice? Any tips for under sail power vs engine power when raising lowering sales in wind?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 18:52:56

quote:
Originally posted by Landshark

And this brings me to a question, what's the best way to bring down a jib in the wind? Naturally, the thought of pointing into the wind comes to mind, but like you said it causes the jib to flail wildly in moderate/heavy winds (it also takes a bit of skill to keep the boat pointing into the wind for too long, before the wind pushes it sideways).

Any good advice? Any tips for under sail power vs engine power when raising lowering sales in wind?

This question more or less assumes that your jib is hanked on, because a roller furled jib doesn't generally present these problems.

Every experienced racer and long distance passage maker I have sailed with, regardless of the size of the boat, generally starts the motor and brings the boat head-to-wind to lower the jib in any significant amount of wind. (They will occasionally take the jib down <u>in very light air</u> without bringing it head-to-wind.) When the boat is head-to-wind, you simply release the halliard, and let the jib fall onto the foredeck. The foredeck crew usually stand aft of the mast until the jib is on the deck. The mast shrouds protect them from getting hit by the sheets during the brief time that they are flailing. As soon as the jib is on the deck, or nearly so, the foredeck crew move forward and smother the sail. If the jib is raised on a head foil, you might need one crew member to sit on the bow pulpit, facing aft, so that he can pull the sail down after the halliard is released, but he won't be in the way of flailing sheets.

The only other time I see people striking the jib while sailing downwind is when hoisting a spinnaker, but that procedure is carefully choreographed, and I've never seen flailing sheets become a problem.

I was singlehanding my Cal 25 last summer in about 15-18 kt winds and choppy seas, and took my jib down about the same way. I brought her head-to-wind (without the engine running.) I released the jib halliard and dropped the jib on the foredeck. Then I had to figure out how to keep the boat under control while I went to the foredeck to lash down the jib. If I remember correctly, I put the boat on starboard tack, with the mainsheet taut and the traveler eased to leeward slightly. Then I lashed the tiller to windward. The mainsail tended to drive the boat forward, but the rudder kept the bow from crossing the eye of the wind. The result was that the boat moved slowly forward with a reasonably gentle motion. I have seen it referred to as a form of heaving to on mainsail alone, and I have seen others call it forereaching. Regardless of what it's called, it worked when I needed it to work.

There's not just one correct way to accomplish most tasks on a sailboat. Whatever works for you, in the applicable circumstances, is the best approach. Sometimes you have to figure out how to do it at the time.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/26/2014 19:06:39

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2014 : 20:06:23

First, as a non-racer, I'll assert that a roller furler changed our lives! No more scrambling to the foredeck... Pull one string and you're under way--pull another and you're wrapped up and done!

That said, on a boat we had with a hank-on jib, I rigged what I call a "douser"--a small-diameter line running from the cockpit to a small block by the stem fitting, shackled to the topmost hank on the jib. (I also ran it through a couple of intermediate hanks to reduce the flopping around.) It had to run free when hoisting the jib, and then was used to pull the jib down tight to the deck and prevent the wind "on the nose" from pushing it back up the forestay. Again, no scrambling to the foredeck, no jib climbing back up the forestay, and everything stayed in place until we were back at the dock. Not like ruller furling, but better than nothing.

One detail: I found that attaching to the head of the sail above the top hank was not successful--the douser tended to pull the headboard over to the side and caused the whole system to bind on the forestay. The topmost hank was much better.

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