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Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/04/2014 : 10:48:53

Now that the season is winding down for most of us we would like to hear racing stories from this past summer.
How was your summer? Where did you race, who and what boats did you race against and how did you do good or not so as well as lessons learned.

Edited by - Peregrine on 10/10/2014 04:49:03

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2014 : 11:27:31

John... would you happen to have the results of the 2014 nationals?

Edited by - on

Trust Me
1st Mate

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USA
71 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2014 : 15:14:08

Here's my video from youtube to help keep the adrenaline going during the coming winter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUSCcBzrSB8
enjoy

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2014 : 18:31:32

quote:
Originally posted by shnool

John... would you happen to have the results of the 2014 nationals?

This is all they sent.
https://www.facebook.com/events/817434708296262

That no one traveled to compete hardly makes the regatta a "Nationals".

Edited by - Peregrine on 10/11/2014 18:38:18

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2014 : 07:10:46

quote:
Originally posted by Peregrine

quote:
Originally posted by shnool

John... would you happen to have the results of the 2014 nationals?

This is all they sent.
https://www.facebook.com/events/817434708296262

That no one traveled to compete hardly makes the regatta a "Nationals".

Since 1983, we had a National Regatta every year except one, but we didn't have a National Regatta at all in 2012 or 2013 because the Vice Commodore failed to find a host club to sponsor it, and we wouldn't have had one in 2014 if the folks at Wayzata hadn't volunteered to host it late in the game, and we don't appear to have a host club lined up yet for 2015.

The by-laws used to provide that the organization of the national regatta was the duty of the Vice Commodore. Some Vice Commodore apparently didn't want to be burdened with that responsibility, and persuaded the officers to change that bylaw to relieve him of it. That's tantamount to covering one's behind in anticipation of one's future failure. Now, supposedly, nobody has that responsibility. The Vice Commodore insists that it isn't his duty, but he still kinda sorta posts all the notices relating to the regatta on this forum. I don't know what conversations have taken place between the Commodore and Vice Commodore, but I think it's a safe bet that Russ assigned that duty to someone, and that it was probably the Vice Commodore. If that's true, then denying that it is his responsibility, based on the changed bylaw, is disingenuous. If you want a job to be done, you have to asssign that duty to someone who will take the responsibility to do it. You can't have a rule that gives an officer a ready-made excuse for his failure.

Other changes have been made in the bylaws that have contributed to the problem. Art. VII., paragraph A declares that "The National Championship Regatta is an annual event hosted by a Fleet and that is sanctioned and sponsored by the Association. It is not an
Association event and, therefore, is not guaranteed to occur every year." Let me paraphrase that for you. "The National Regatta is hosted by a Fleet, so, if it doesn't take place, or is a failure, it's the Fleet's fault, not ours."

Art. VII establishes a method for soliciting bids from prospective sponsors. Originally, the National Association was free to solicit bids from anyone who wanted to sponsor it. Somebody apparently thought it would be a nice idea if our fleets were given the first opportunity to sponsor it, and, if no fleet stepped up to the plate, then it would be offered to anyone who wanted to sponsor it. The problem with that is that, our fleets rarely, if ever, agree to sponsor the regatta. Most of our national regattas have been sponsored by local clubs of all sorts, at the urging of an eager member. The result is that the delay in offering the regatta to non-fleet sponsors reduces their time to plan the event. Local clubs often begin planning their events a year in advance, and it is often late in their organizational process to plan a major event, like a national regatta. Moreover, local clubs often see the sponsorship of a national regatta as a daunting task, and they need to consider it awhile and discuss it among themselves before they are willing to make a committment to sponsor it.

I don't care who sponsors our national regatta. I'm thrilled to see anyone sponsor it, regardless of whether it's the sailing club of an individual member, or a Catalina 25 fleet.

It has never been an easy task for past Vice Commodores to find a sponsor for the national regatta, but they always managed, until the by-laws were changed in ways that provided obstacles to them, and until they provided the Vice Commodore a ready excuse for failure. As long as these foolish provisions and excuses for failure are eliminated from the bylaws, there is virtually no hope for the future of the national regatta. These obstacles need to be eliminated.

There was a momentum established by the long chain of C25 national regattas. That momentum was accompanied by a degree of excitement among the members each year. That excitement was a key factor in helping to find a sponsor for the event each year. Members either wanted to race their own boat in it, or crew for someone else. That momentum has been lost, and I don't know whether that momentum and excitement can ever be regained, but they certainly won't be regained under the "guidance" of the current Vice Commodore, and under the current bylaws.

If you haven't heard the results of this year's national regatta, it's not the Vice Commodore's fault. It's because "This is all they sent me." Blame "them," not "me."

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2014 : 08:05:01

I found these:
<center>

2014 National Regatta After 4
Results of the 2014 National Regatta after 4 races.</center>

<center>

2014 National Regatta After 8
Results of the 2014 National Regatta after 8 races.</center>

<center>

2014 National Regatta Finals
Final Results of the 2014 National Regatta.</center>

I'm sure the host club would supply the info in a better quality if we asked them.

Paul

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2014 : 10:26:19

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Since 1983, we had a National Regatta every year except one, but we didn't have a National Regatta at all in 2012 or 2013 because the Vice Commodore failed to find a host club to sponsor it, and we wouldn't have had one in 2014 if the folks at Wayzata hadn't volunteered to host it late in the game, and we don't appear to have a host club lined up yet for 2015.

The by-laws used to provide that the organization of the national regatta was the duty of the Vice Commodore. Some Vice Commodore apparently didn't want to be burdened with that responsibility, and persuaded the officers to change that bylaw to relieve him of it. That's tantamount to covering one's behind in anticipation of one's future failure. Now, supposedly, nobody has that responsibility. The Vice Commodore insists that it isn't his duty, but he still kinda sorta posts all the notices relating to the regatta on this forum. I don't know what conversations have taken place between the Commodore and Vice Commodore, but I think it's a safe bet that Russ assigned that duty to someone, and that it was probably the Vice Commodore. If that's true, then denying that it is his responsibility, based on the changed bylaw, is disingenuous. If you want a job to be done, you have to asssign that duty to someone who will take the responsibility to do it. You can't have a rule that gives an officer a ready-made excuse for his failure.

Other changes have been made in the bylaws that have contributed to the problem. Art. VII., paragraph A declares that "The National Championship Regatta is an annual event hosted by a Fleet and that is sanctioned and sponsored by the Association. It is not an
Association event and, therefore, is not guaranteed to occur every year." Let me paraphrase that for you. "The National Regatta is hosted by a Fleet, so, if it doesn't take place, or is a failure, it's the Fleet's fault, not ours."

Art. VII establishes a method for soliciting bids from prospective sponsors. Originally, the National Association was free to solicit bids from anyone who wanted to sponsor it. Somebody apparently thought it would be a nice idea if our fleets were given the first opportunity to sponsor it, and, if no fleet stepped up to the plate, then it would be offered to anyone who wanted to sponsor it. The problem with that is that, our fleets rarely, if ever, agree to sponsor the regatta. Most of our national regattas have been sponsored by local clubs of all sorts, at the urging of an eager member. The result is that the delay in offering the regatta to non-fleet sponsors reduces their time to plan the event. Local clubs often begin planning their events a year in advance, and it is often late in their organizational process to plan a major event, like a national regatta. Moreover, local clubs often see the sponsorship of a national regatta as a daunting task, and they need to consider it awhile and discuss it among themselves before they are willing to make a committment to sponsor it.

I don't care who sponsors our national regatta. I'm thrilled to see anyone sponsor it, regardless of whether it's the sailing club of an individual member, or a Catalina 25 fleet.

It has never been an easy task for past Vice Commodores to find a sponsor for the national regatta, but they always managed, until the by-laws were changed in ways that provided obstacles to them, and until they provided the Vice Commodore a ready excuse for failure. As long as these foolish provisions and excuses for failure are eliminated from the bylaws, there is virtually no hope for the future of the national regatta. These obstacles need to be eliminated.

There was a momentum established by the long chain of C25 national regattas. That momentum was accompanied by a degree of excitement among the members each year. That excitement was a key factor in helping to find a sponsor for the event each year. Members either wanted to race their own boat in it, or crew for someone else. That momentum has been lost, and I don't know whether that momentum and excitement can ever be regained, but they certainly won't be regained under the "guidance" of the current Vice Commodore, and under the current bylaws.

If you haven't heard the results of this year's national regatta, it's not the Vice Commodore's fault. It's because "This is all they sent me." Blame "them," not "me."

From the bylaws;

VII. NATIONALS:

A-The National Championship Regatta is an annual event hosted by a Fleet and that is sanctioned and sponsored by the Association. It is not an Association event and, therefore, is not guaranteed to occur every year.

B-The Vice Commodore, acting as NOC Chairman and by any means deemed effective and appropriate by the Officers, shall issue a call for Fleet bids to host the Nationals for the following year by April 1.

C-Fleet bids to host the Nationals shall be submitted in writing to the Vice Commodore by June 1 for a vote of the Officers (Article VIII, Section B) by June 30. If no satisfactory bid from a Fleet has been received by June 1, then bidding shall immediately be opened to non-Fleet organizations desiring to host the Nationals.

D-The Vice Commodore and the Chief Measurer serve to help the winning Fleet coordinate and promote the Nationals. Every effort will be made to secure the participation of those Fleet representatives most responsible for previously coordinating the hosting of the National Championship Regatta.

E-The Association’s sponsorship of the Nationals also comes in the form of temporarily funding upfront expenditures and deposits, and provision of a “stop gap” for any reasonable losses incurred by the Fleet for hosting the Nationals. The reasonability of such losses remains the sole discretion of the Association Officers. Additionally, the hosting Fleet shall be allowed to retain any profits generated by the event after a full accounting has been provided to the Officers.

F-The Officers shall make every effort to solicit bids to hold the Nationals on an East, Central/Mountain, West, East time zone rotation in order to attempt to provide the greatest number of Regular Members a chance to compete for the title of National Champion. If no bid has been accepted by the designated rotational time zone by June 1, then bidding will be opened to include all time zones with preference going to the time zone not most recently hosting the event. In relation to this section, Indiana shall be considered in the Eastern Time Zone, Arizona in the Central/Mountain Time Zone, and the 2006 Nationals shall begin the rotation in the Eastern Time Zone.

The bylaws have read the same since I joined the Assoc. in 1997. The current officers have not changed any part of the Nationals bylaws.

Despite the misinformation in Milbys post (see underlined) I do think it is time to have a frank and open discussion on the Nationals.

To date we have no bids for the 2015 season and as you can see from this thread little or no interest in racing at all.
Do we have enough racers to host a "Nationals"? Do we have a fleet or group that can get other members to travel to a Nationals? No member outside Wayzetta attended this years Nationals, does that qualify as a Nationals or a club race?

Yes I know that is provocative but we as an assoc should speak out and let opinions be known.

I do hope Milby allows other members to have a a say.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2014 : 11:34:35

I do not believe that the C25 can ever have a "true" Nationals akin to those held by the C22's.
We do not have a concentration of boats in any one area of the Country to form a nucleus for the Regatta (like the Capri 25's in this year's "Nationals"), and thus have to rely on skippers trailering, often long distances, to get a decent attendance. Gary B did the best job at that with 21 boats racing on the Columbia River in Portland. On Great Salt Lake we had either 8 or 9, and on Lake Cheney (Wichita, KS) we had 5 or 6.
The C25 is not an easily trailered boat, especially the fixed keel version (I only did it once and swore that was the last time) - the height above the trailer and the weight being the major problems.
It is possible to crew for a local skipper, but this, in a way, diminishes the Nationals experience of skippering your own boat.
All in all I think that the Association has a tough row to hoe to institute a true National Regatta.
Just my 2 cents as a 3 time entrant.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2014 : 11:45:47

I am sorry John it actually wasn't meant to beat up on you. Thought maybe there was some controversy over the results. Honestly if I hadn't had to travel to much to buy a new boat, I'd have made the trip out. I would have been dead last but I am sure I could have learned something.

Now that I've changed associations to the S2 7.9, I honestly think they are more into racing than this one. That is not a knock on this association, it just appears that the focus of MOST Catalina 25 owners is cruising. The Capri owners seem to be poorly represented on this board, or perhaps they are more focused on their mixed fleet racing now, with the exception of WYC of course. It's kind of a shame too, as I think the Capri 25 is a stellar boat to race on, especially if you can get a full crew. Perhaps the Capri folks are here, just not posting much, I dunno.

But to more directly answer your question (as I am still a member here, until next June, and owned a Capri 25 for most of this year)... I placed 8th overall in our club series, of what appears to be 15 people actually racing... where I was 2nd overall last year. OF the 8 races we had, I attended 5 (actually 4, I was RC for one), because I didn't have a boat for the last 3, I didn't race one the roster (I crewed for my crew for one o them). While that doesn't sound so good... perhaps it'll be funnier to know that I placed 3rd sailing solo in one of our races, and only had 1 other crew for the rest, so solo or double handed all year. Results here: http://www.paupacksailingclub.com/2014_Race_Results/2014_race_results.html

Its apparent I need permanent crew, and need to create a crew pool. Our club is down in ranks this year, and I hope it isn't a trend. Perhaps that gives evidence to your larger Nationals picture as well. Would NOT surprise me.

My other hobby, field trialing, is also on a downturn. Cost of fuel, and travel, and overall the poor economy has taken its toll on disposable income and ability to participate in "hobbies."

Edited by - shnool on 10/31/2014 11:48:11

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2014 : 19:00:12

After more than a few years observing, it seems to me that hardly anyone has ever bought a C-25 or C-250 for the purpose of racing. A small number bought them to have sailboats, and then raced in local PHRF events. Serious racers buy one of two types of boats: one-designs that are popular in their area (like the Capri 25), or hot boats that will challenge for the front of diverse fleets (like the Capri 25). C-25/250s are neither, although various people have done very well in local competition. The casual racers who happen to own C-25/250s aren't likely to put them on trailers (or have trailers) and tow them (with large tow vehicles) hundreds or thousands of miles to a regatta, as J-boat owners do. One, two, or three anecdotes from the 7000+ sold over 45+ years do not invalidate my conclusions, and our "Nationals" have evolved into local events, and are now virtually extinct. (2014 was local Capris only.)

As a non-member non-participant, I'll suggest (again) recognizing our most successful racers in the country (world?) based on their success in what they do. Then you should have some participation and interest. It would take a person to organize and keep "score", and could produce running results through the year. But I've expounded on this before...

This of course doesn't pretend to bring our members together--that could be the objective of something the association has done (unofficially) in the past--particularly in the winter, on a regional basis. They're called "get-togethers."

Any association should evolve with the times and be realistic about the interests of its members. I doubt the Cape Dory National Association has National Championships... Nuff said.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/31/2014 19:16:31

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2014 : 19:11:43

Let me add that I'm saying this (again) because I hate to watch one of the great sailing associations I know of slide into bickering and blaming over something that might no longer be feasible, and that clearly does not interest the huge majority (if any) of its members--a National Championship on a particular lake or bay somewhere in the USA. I suggest it's time for change.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/31/2014 19:19:09

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2014 : 05:07:07

Dave,
Blunt, To the Point, and realistic.

We do not have enough 'Get Togethers'!

Perhaps a new Forum board for 'Get Togethers' would be in order.

I personally don't race (no one to race against) and would dearly love to 'get together' with other C25/C250/Capri25 boats.

In the over 9 years (boy has that flown by!) that we have owned JD, we have met with other catalina owners on the water once in Cocoa Beach, Once in Biscayne Bay, Once in Key Largo and once in Pensecola.

My plan is to work out a get together in 2015.

According to the Boat Search results, there are 95 of our boats in Florida!

Now that would be a noteworthy get together!

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 11/01/2014 05:15:00

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2014 : 07:00:39

I see Paul is already on the case in Florida (see the Cruising Forum). I'll just add that one of the best get-togethers was probably around 10 years ago (?) in Dayton, OH, as I recall... Out of season. No boats. People drove and flew in--mostly from the midwest. As I recall, a room rate was negotiated with a hotel, and a restaurant room reserved... Singles and couples attended--not an insignificant number, as I recall from the reports.

That's the more ambitious version. Less ambitious could be an off-season Saturday lunch in the center of a small cluster of people--for example, I could set one up on the water near (or at) the Mystic Seaport some time for folks in CT, RI, MA...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/01/2014 07:08:28

sdpinaz
Navigator

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USA
193 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2014 : 07:54:44

I, for one, would be more inclined to travel with my boat to go to a cruising get-together, than a race. While I have been interested in following the Nationals from afar, I bought the C-25 for cruising. I felt the C-25 was the largest, affordable, trailerable sailboat that I would comfortably drive long distances with and launch at boat ramps on my own that I could also cruise with my small family. I think if my intention was racing I would have bought a melges 24 or J24 or some other One-Design along those lines... But that is not the type of sailing I foresee our family doing in the coming future. I don't know if the demographic of C-25 owners have changed over the years, but I feel most of the active forum members write about topics that are mostly upgrading/repairing/traveling/cruising related and not too much about racing, but I could be wrong...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2014 : 09:08:30

Scott--there have been many interesting racing discussions over the years--particularly involving Chuck Shaw's hull#1, probably one of the five fastest C-25s on the planet... and Derek Crawford's (now gone) ^This Side Up^, probably the fastest. But it's telling we never got to see them head-to-head to find out. They humiliated a lot of local boats... ("You were beaten by a CATALINA 25??") But they were among the tiny minority who raced C-25s seriously or at all, and they didn't haul their boats to events, as far as I've heard.

I think the demographic has changed somewhat--in large part due to the age of these boats, which makes them very affordable for casual sailors and family cruising. The C-250 was designed for a different demographic, and was never competitive with the C-25 on the race course. It did, however, offer better space and amenities for families, and the economy of easier trailering. Both boats were never built to a one-design spec--they offered multiple keels and rigs, plus inboard and outboard options. O/D racing was never in the plan, as it clearly was for the Capri 25.

By comparison, the C-22 is eminently trailerable, has a one-design model for the budget-constrained hard-core, and has fostered O/D fleets and national regattas, although that sounds like it's on a slight decline. Maybe sailboat racing is on a decline... (?)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/01/2014 09:09:51

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2014 : 13:59:02

"Maybe sailboat racing is on a decline... (?)"
Dave, I think you may be correct - and not only racing. Our yacht club used to be 65/35 sail/power. Over the last few years it has completely reversed. Our dock used to have just sailboats slipped on it. Now the majority are powerboats.
When I was RCSail in 1991 I would have 5 fleets starting (at 10 minute intervals in those days)with 30 or more boats. Now it's almost impossible to get 15 for are Bi-Club Series. The only decent sized fleet is the J-22's at the other club on the lake.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2014 : 10:43:19

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

"Maybe sailboat racing is on a decline... (?)"
Dave, I think you may be correct - and not only racing. Our yacht club used to be 65/35 sail/power. Over the last few years it has completely reversed. Our dock used to have just sailboats slipped on it. Now the majority are powerboats...

Same here, and of course I'm part of the reversal.

Getting back to the association and racing, since it's a nasty day outside, I'll elaborate on my suggestion...

The idea is to keep a running score of the local racing results achieved by any members who want to compete for an association "Racer of the Year" or "Boat of the Year" or whatever you want to call it. Along with that designation could be "Rookie of the Year", "Most Improved", and maybe "Anchor Dragger" awards...

Scoring could be done on a simple Excel spreadsheet, where weekly submissions are recorded and a running summary published on this forum. Scoring would recognize the corrected-time places in events sanctioned by clubs or other organizations. A multiple-race regatta would qualify as one event. I would suggest also recognizing the number of boats beaten (on corrected time) in a fleet--3rd among 20 being better than 3rd among 4, for example. That could be done by reversing the point system so 3rd among 20 gets 18 points, while 3rd among 4 gets 2 points. But it might make sense to use an algorithm (like 2*sqrt(fleet)) that reduces the weighting of the fleet size somewhat--that would be a discussion for the participants.

Some maximum number of races (like 15?) could be reported in a calendar year. Southern racers could use results from Jan-March and Oct-Dec, while northerners report for April-Sept. Up to that limit, the more races, the more points. But the limit probably shouldn't automatically reward someone who races for an uninterrupted 26 weeks--that might be beyond the spirit of this association.

Just to insure validity of the results, the apparent year-end winner could be required to submit (or point to) documentation of their finishes--just for no suspicions or hard feelings...

Just some ideas... There would be more details to work through. The actual plan should be designed (or shot down) by racers--a winter doldrums project.

There could also be awards for "Cruiser of the Year" and "Upgrader of the Year"--subjective decisions of the officers based on submissions for publication in Mainsheet...

Sarge stepping aside and standing by on 9, 13 and 16.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/02/2014 11:08:23

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2014 : 13:34:10

We might lay claim to this past year's dragster award!

On our last trip to the bay, we were anchored with a half dozen other boats (all but one a sailboat, our's made two!) We were pretty tired after getting boat out on the water and down to the anchorage, including shifting from an earlier anchorage where the SP's were belting out toons from their triple decker floating condos.
So taking a break, after cockpit shower and mid afternoon Pussers, we were watching football, kinda, still in our towels. I heard a funny noise, got up and saw the bowsprit of a powerboat right outside our port side window. Scambled to get on a pair of shorts and up on deck to grab hold the other boat before it did any damage to us or us to it. We had dragged several hundred feet and caught on their anchor line (between our hull and swing keel!)

All turned out well and the owners invited us aboard for sun downers later with a blast on their air horn.

Lesson learned: No matter how nice the anchorage seems, put the anchor alarm on!

Paul

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2014 : 14:51:10

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

"Maybe sailboat racing is on a decline... (?)"
Dave, I think you may be correct - and not only racing. Our yacht club used to be 65/35 sail/power. Over the last few years it has completely reversed. Our dock used to have just sailboats slipped on it. Now the majority are powerboats...
Same here, and of course I'm part of the reversal.

Getting back to the association and racing, since it's a nasty day outside, I'll elaborate on my suggestion...

The idea is to keep a running score of the local racing results achieved by any members who want to compete for an association "Racer of the Year" or "Boat of the Year" or whatever you want to call it. Along with that designation could be "Rookie of the Year", "Most Improved", and maybe "Anchor Dragger" awards...

Scoring could be done on a simple Excel spreadsheet, where weekly submissions are recorded and a running summary published on this forum. Scoring would recognize the corrected-time places in events sanctioned by clubs or other organizations. A multiple-race regatta would qualify as one event. I would suggest also recognizing the number of boats beaten (on corrected time) in a fleet--3rd among 20 being better than 3rd among 4, for example. That could be done by reversing the point system so 3rd among 20 gets 18 points, while 3rd among 4 gets 2 points. But it might make sense to use an algorithm (like 2*sqrt(fleet)) that reduces the weighting of the fleet size somewhat--that would be a discussion for the participants.

Some maximum number of races (like 15?) could be reported in a calendar year. Southern racers could use results from Jan-March and Oct-Dec, while northerners report for April-Sept. Up to that limit, the more races, the more points. But the limit probably shouldn't automatically reward someone who races for an uninterrupted 26 weeks--that might be beyond the spirit of this association.

Just to insure validity of the results, the apparent year-end winner could be required to submit (or point to) documentation of their finishes--just for no suspicions or hard feelings...

Just some ideas... There would be more details to work through. The actual plan should be designed (or shot down) by racers--a winter doldrums project.

There could also be awards for "Cruiser of the Year" and "Upgrader of the Year"--subjective decisions of the officers based on submissions for publication in Mainsheet...

Sarge stepping aside and standing by on 9, 13 and 16.

Dave that is a terrific idea and could be easily followed if racers send in thier results. But....
Who's racing? this thread started by asking who raced and where. I don't see any responses from racers.
Is anyone besides the Capri's racing on a regular basis?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2014 : 17:18:16

John... We've seen quite a few posts from people who've been racing this year, several being first-timers, and there are probably others who haven't felt inclined to post. For example, I can't imagine Chuck Shaw not being out there humiliating J-24s and the like... (He's too modest.)

I'm hopeful that a program like what I described might generate more interest in submitting results--after all, racers like to compete! "Boat of the Year" might provide some incentive, and just might turn out to be more successful than the last (pick your number) "Nationals" in terms of participation. I'm hopeful it would be fun for the Association and good for the C-25/250 brand. (I'd be interested in following the progress.) And I see no reason not to include the Capri 25 in the mix with, results from both PHRF or O/D (Wayzatta) events. If members prefer, three different winners could be determined--C-25, C-250, and CP-25.

If it doesn't attract more participation than Nationals (hard to imagine), we can move on... There's nothing wrong with this association as it has evolved--racing or no racing. It's still about the best brand/model group I've ever seen, especially for supporting new owners and sailors. That alone is a worthy cause.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/02/2014 17:20:37

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2014 : 08:52:54

A sail Havasu type event would/might be great for Catalina 25/250 owners, but would be hell for Capri 25 owners.

I submit that the already nearly silent minority of Capri 25 owners wouldn't do well going to, or participating IN, a cruise meet-up. The Capri 25 is a stellar racer, but a lousy cruiser, and an even bigger PITA to launch and retrieve... (I bet I made mine easier than some of these Catalina 25s would be to haul and transport, especially that 8800lbs of boat/trailer).

I submit that you have 2 very distinct types of boats represented within the association... One a great MORC racer the other 2 great pocket cruisers. I doubt it'd be easy to make everyone happy.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2014 : 10:36:11

The purpose of the national association is to serve the varied interests of all it's members. It is no surprise that the cruising members would be satisfied without a national regatta at all, or with a feeble substitute for it such as Dave has proposed, or with a members' "gam." The racing enthusiasts among our membership are undoubtedly in the minority. It's easy for the majoritarian cruising members to undervalue those activities in which they don't participate and have little or no interest.

I raced in the first national regatta in 1983, and have raced in a total of six of them, and towed my boat to four, and it has always been challenging to organize them, but for 30 years, the officers have managed to get it done. Trailering a boat to a properly organized national regatta isn't particularly difficult. The organizers have always made a few local people available to help launch and rig the boats and to re-load them after the regatta, and they found volunteers to crew for people who came without enough crew. I only brought my own crew to 2 regattas, using local volunteers for most of them.

For many years, in the pre-internet era, the only means the association had of communicating with it's members was via the four issues of Mainsheet magazine per year. The officers had only those four opportunities to elect officers each year and to find a sponsor for the next year's regatta, and to tell the members when and where it was going to be, and to encourage them to attend it. If the officers couldn't get it all done in those four issues of the Mainsheet, it wasn't going to happen at all. The only opportunity that the association had for a face-to-face meeting with a group of it's members was at the national regatta. By comparison, now, thanks to the internet, the officers have a new opportunity to communicate with the members and to do their work every single day of the year.

Organizing a national regatta requires salesmanship. You have to sell someone on the idea of sponsoring it. You have to persuade them that it is really fairly easy to do. After you have found a sponsor, you have to sell the members on the idea of participating in it. It is woefully inadequate to merely post a notice online that bids are being solicited, and then to follow it up by editing the post, to "refresh" it. That's not salesmanship. That's just "going through the motions," and a sure recipe for failure. Apparently many members are willing to accept lackadaisical, uninspired performance. They just elected the officer to another 2 year term.

It should go without saying that there is a huge difference between gathering together for a head-to-head, on-the-water competition among similar boats and mailing in your racing results at the end of the season to determine who is going to be "called" the Catalina 25 national champion. To a racer, the joy is in the competition. There is no joy in mailing in your annual statistics, and recieving a xeroxed "certificate of participation" in the return mail. Don't bother.

I don't honestly know whether "times have changed" and it is no longer realistic to try to organize a national regatta, because nobody has made a thoughtful, reasonable effort to do so in recent years. It's a damned shame.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2014 : 12:06:54

quote:
Originally posted by Peregrine

Now that the season is winding down for most of us we would like to hear racing stories from this past summer.
How was your summer? Where did you race, who and what boats did you race against and how did you do good or not so as well as lessons learned.

To repeat the orginal reason for this thread.

Now that the season is winding down for most of us we would like to hear racing stories from this past summer.
How was your summer? Where did you race, who and what boats did you race against and how did you do good or not so, as well as lessons learned.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2014 : 22:34:31

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

The purpose of the national association is to serve the varied interests of all it's members. It is no surprise that the cruising members would be satisfied without a national regatta at all, or with a feeble substitute for it such as Dave has proposed, or with a members' "gam." The racing enthusiasts among our membership are undoubtedly in the minority. It's easy for the majoritarian cruising members to undervalue those activities in which they don't participate and have little or no interest.

I raced in the first national regatta in 1983, and have raced in a total of six of them, and towed my boat to four, and it has always been challenging to organize them, but for 30 years, the officers have managed to get it done. Trailering a boat to a properly organized national regatta isn't particularly difficult. The organizers have always made a few local people available to help launch and rig the boats and to re-load them after the regatta, and they found volunteers to crew for people who came without enough crew. I only brought my own crew to 2 regattas, using local volunteers for most of them.

For many years, in the pre-internet era, the only means the association had of communicating with it's members was via the four issues of Mainsheet magazine per year. The officers had only those four opportunities to elect officers each year and to find a sponsor for the next year's regatta, and to tell the members when and where it was going to be, and to encourage them to attend it. If the officers couldn't get it all done in those four issues of the Mainsheet, it wasn't going to happen at all. The only opportunity that the association had for a face-to-face meeting with a group of it's members was at the national regatta. By comparison, now, thanks to the internet, the officers have a new opportunity to communicate with the members and to do their work every single day of the year.

Organizing a national regatta requires salesmanship. You have to sell someone on the idea of sponsoring it. You have to persuade them that it is really fairly easy to do. After you have found a sponsor, you have to sell the members on the idea of participating in it. It is woefully inadequate to merely post a notice online that bids are being solicited, and then to follow it up by editing the post, to "refresh" it. That's not salesmanship. That's just "going through the motions," and a sure recipe for failure. Apparently many members are willing to accept lackadaisical, uninspired performance. They just elected the officer to another 2 year term.

It should go without saying that there is a huge difference between gathering together for a head-to-head, on-the-water competition among similar boats and mailing in your racing results at the end of the season to determine who is going to be "called" the Catalina 25 national champion. To a racer, the joy is in the competition. There is no joy in mailing in your annual statistics, and recieving a xeroxed "certificate of participation" in the return mail. Don't bother.

I don't honestly know whether "times have changed" and it is no longer realistic to try to organize a national regatta, because nobody has made a thoughtful, reasonable effort to do so in recent years. It's a damned shame.

Please understand that Mr. Milby has an agenda that does not serve the members or the Association.

Edited by - Peregrine on 05/27/2016 12:24:30

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2014 : 13:28:20

I can understand why my suggestion might be considered a "feeble substitute", especially by those who remember "how it used to be." But I'm not convinced a National Regatta is in the cards for this organization any more, other than for the race-bred Capri 25s. Thinking back to the Nationals in San Diego, where I think three local boats competed, it seems that has been the story at least since then, with various combinations of Association officers involved. Zero C-25s and zero C-250s competed at Lake Minnetonka this year, even though I understand there are some number of both locally on the lake. The organizers there made clear they were ready to make it a great event, but...... To my (limited) knowledge, many of our most fervent C-25 racers, like Derek Crawford, Chuck Shaw, and others, have never brought their boats to a National Regatta. That would seem to tell the story. For one thing, their boats are typically fin keel models, which people don't buy for trailering and therefore likely don't even own a trailer. And people generally don't buy wing keels to race. Swing keels, maybe...

In that pre-internet era, the C-25 was still a "new" boat that represented a considerable investment for many people. That by itself tends to stir some passions. Most passionate racers today are not looking for an old cruising boat--they've moved on. The C-25 demographic is evidently different. If somebody is interested in regional or national competitions, they pick a boat that is practical to transport, and that has an enthusiastic following who will also transport their boats. The C-22 still fits those criteria.

My "feeble substitute" is intended not to "undervalue" our racers' interests, but to recognize them for what they are actually doing, wherever they're doing it. No trailer required. No monster tow vehicle required. No need to dedicate half your vacation time to the trip. Fin keel boats can participate. Correct out over some Js and get some points! A running score could be published during the year, as an enticement to participate and maybe a seed for discussions.

In the pre-internet era, as stated, the regatta succeeded (by whatever criteria) with with very limited communication. If even a small minority of our members are actually interested in doing it in this era, it shouldn't take extraordinary "salesmanship" beyond those members challenging each other to "meet me at the line." It ain't happening. Times appear to have changed. (What a surprise.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/21/2014 15:37:41

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2016 : 16:59:44

quote:
Originally posted by Peregrine
Please understand that Mr. Milby has an agenda that does not serve the members or the Association.

Perhaps you'd like to tell me, as well as the entire membership, what my agenda is, John. When you do, please produce your proof that I have ever spoken or written of such an agenda.

For those who might not know, I am a charter member of the National Association, having joined in 1983, the year of it's inception. I was its first Chief Measurer and its second Commodore. Accordingly, I had a good deal of input into the establishing of its basic practices. Although I sold my C25 in 2004, since that time, I have maintained my paid membership as a member of the Admiralty.

Several years ago, some members advocated the creation of an off-topic branch where the members could discuss politics and similar topics. I strongly opposed it because it would create wedges and animosities among our members, and I believe there are other places where those issues can be discussed. One of the best traits of this organization is the great camaraderie that exists among most of the members, and I didn't want to see anything detract from that.

When the C250s joined our association, I made sure that any C250 owners who asked questions were given the best answers we could give them, until we had enough knowledgeable new C250 members to provide answers based on their first hand knowledge.

When a suggestion was made to invite Capri 25s to join, I urged the Association members to do so, and likewise made sure their online questions were answered to the best of our ability.

I check in with the forum almost every day, and especially look for posts or requests that haven't received a reply. For many years, I made a special point of welcoming each new member to the forum. I haven't been doing that as often lately, because others are doing it.

Through the years, even though I was no longer an officer, I supported the racing program by participating in it, by stirring up interest in it, and by helping the Association find someone who was willing to assume the responsibility for organizing it and holding the event at their local venue. You see, John, a national regatta doesn't organize itself. It doesn't just happen automatically every year. If you really want to hold an event, you can't just post a notice online once or twice a year, and expect it to all flow from that. You have to make it happen. You have to tell people how much fun it is (but then you have never attended one, so you wouldn't know). You have to tell members how easy it is to present one at their own lake. (But then you have never presented one at your local venue, so you wouldn't know that either.)

During your tenure as an officer, you did the absolute minimum to organize the national regatta that you thought was required by the bylaws. You never did what was necessary to get the job done.

It was, at one time, on my agenda to ensure that you would never be Commodore, for no other reason than because I strongly believed that to be in the best interests of the association. I see that the office of Vice Commodore is now listed as vacant, so perhaps I can remove it from my agenda.

To the best of my knowledge, you are the only member to ever be ejected from the membership of this association. Afterward, you created a blog that attacked association officers, created a false impression that the association was in turmoil (the only turmoil was created by you), and then you spread it around other online sailing forums. In defense of the association, I had to disavow the false impressions that were created by your blog.

The officers from that era won't discuss why they let you back into the association, but if I had to guess, I'd bet you paid a lawyer to write a threatening letter to the officers, and they caved in out of fear.

Now, aren't you glad you stirred this pot again by editing a year-old thread?

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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