Association Forum - Sailing a WB

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Sailing a WB

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

CJRoxs
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/20/2014 : 06:45:31

I've had Lily a year and a half now and have noticed a couple of quirks about the way she sails. First, I am unable to sail with just the main. Without some jib, my steering is not reliable. I noticed this in heavy winds (22 knots last evening). It seems the pivot point of the boat doesn't balance with just the main.

Second, my rudder keeps rotating up. This happens over the course of a few weeks. The first time I thought someone was messing with me. However, it happened again last night. I noticed a hole in the clamping plates on the rudder. I think this is for a preventing pin, although I haven't had time to investigate. I noticed there seemed like a lot of weather helm and when my son tried to steer so I could furl the sails, the rudder hit the prop. Now I have a winter repair to do.

I would love to hear your comments on how other WBs sail and on the rudder issue. Also, any pointers.

Edited by - CJRoxs on 08/20/2014 06:47:08

bear
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 07:14:50

Here is what I offer. I too have a 95 WB. Make sure the mast is rigged I/A/W the owners manual. I leave me centerboard down only about half way. I up graded to an after market bigger/ deeper rudder. Always been able to sail with just the main. With the bigger rudder and C/B down only half way haven't come close to rounding up. JMTCW

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 07:17:57

Also, it would be nice to see a picture of your rudder, it shouldn't be rotating up. Also if it's a beaching rudder?

Edited by - on

CJRoxs
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
114 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 07:32:04

bear, I/A/W?

I will try to get a picture soon. It is a beaching rudder. It looks exactly like this, except there is a hole in the center bottom of the pinch plate.

Edited by - CJRoxs on 08/20/2014 07:33:58

bear
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 07:42:06

OK, that looks like a series 1 rudder. Those paddles should hold that rudder down. I have a series 1 in my cellar. I don't have a hole in the bottom of the pinch plate. I would ask Santa for a newer improved rudder. Also, think about a tiller tamer, mine keeps the rudder from rotating that far over. What kind of mount is your engine on?

Edited by - on

CJRoxs
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
114 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 07:48:15

Engine is on the transom. Also, where can I get the new and improved version? CD only shows a standard fixed rudder. As for the tamer, I use an auto helm and it only hits when I am at the helm. When the rudder is down in its proper position it doesn't hit the prop.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 08:50:52

I've seen aftermarket kick-up rudders that used a plastic shear-pin to keep the blade down and shear off if the blade hits an object. It sounds like your hole is for that. I think Ruddercraft made this kind of rudder for the C-250 at one time. I believe they now use a gas cylinder system.

Pulling the centerboard part-way up is a common solution to excessive weather helm. It moves the "center of lateral resistance" (think "pivot point") aft to better correspond to the "center of effort" (of the sailplan), which obviously moves aft when sailing on the main alone. Some C-250 WB owners have reported it helps even with both sails up. I suspect you might want the board all the way down (forward) only when sailing under the headsail alone.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/20/2014 08:57:38

CJRoxs
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
114 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 09:03:21

My experience has been the opposite. I have more weather helm when the rudder is not all the way down. An additional note, I have a roller furler main. It has a standard furler mounted right behind the mast on a custom plate that moves the boom back about 6 inches.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 09:20:51

Bear and I are talking about sailing with the centerboard part-way up--not the rudder blade. Indeed, it is very important for the rudder to be fully down when under sail.

Edited by - on

CJRoxs
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
114 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 09:34:05

Wow, I see that now. I will be cleaning my glasses now. :-)

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 09:43:42

quote:
Originally posted by CJRoxs

My experience has been the opposite. I have more weather helm when the rudder is not all the way down. An additional note, I have a roller furler main. It has a standard furler mounted right behind the mast on a custom plate that moves the boom back about 6 inches.

This may move your mainsail center of effort even further back, causing even more weather helm.

You should check your mast rake and make sure it is no more than the 4" amount that Catalina suggests, since you have so many variables causing higher weather helm. Given the mainsail furler arrangement that you have, you might even want to consider reducing your mast rake below 4", if your forestay can adjust that short.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 11:40:49

Just FYI I/A/W means "In Accordance With".

Edited by - on

CJRoxs
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
114 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 12:42:37

Got it. Thanks.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2014 : 21:11:47

When the rudder blade swings up, it's center of force moves back from its pivot point, creating leverage that dramatically increases the pressure on the tiller from even "normal" weather helm, while significantly reducing its ability to control the direction of the boat. If the rudder was designed with some "balance" (a fraction of its surface forward of the pivot line), that's lost entirely if it swings up even a little. The rudder blade should be fully down.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2014 : 05:16:00

The rudder head in the picture is mine and has hold down modifications that are my design to solve the poor design of Catalina. The hole referred to and obstructed from view by the compression handle is part of the original rivet-detent hold down design. It didn't work well because after a little wear, it allowed the rudder to angle aft and as pointed out that is not wanted as it destroys the rudder balance and causes a great deal of helm effort as well as forces upon the rudder that can damage it or other parts of the steering system if one has the wheel.

In the design in the picture, the rudder is held fully down and forward against the frame head by the bungee cord and is both free to kick back if grounded and will automatically pull back down after a grounding. It also provides a line for pulling the rudder down into place.

The actual rudder in that picture is the 2nd generation beaching rudder and in my opinion, the best rudder ever produced for the 250. The sad point is that many didn't know how good the rudder was, because the hold down system was so bad. With the poor hold down system, the rudder would angle aft slightly and manifest tremendous helm strain due to the rudder being so effective with so much rudder grip. The 250 enjoys a rudder with a lot of grip.

Unfortunately, Catalina discontinued the beaching rudder because it believed owners were damaging the steering systems because of wrongfully operating the rudders raked aft... when in actuality it was their poor hold down that was the cause.

When Catalina went to a blade only rudder, it did so with a rudder short enough to clear the ground so that launching could be done with the rudder shipped (hung in place). The result was a rudder that met the needs of the small lake sailor but had inadequate grip for aggressive sailing venues.

CJRoxs.... when your boat is on the trailer, does your beaching (kickup) rudder clear the ground? If it does it is the original generation 1 and has inadequate grip for aggressive sailing. If it won't swing fully down because it hits the ground... it is the generation 2 and is a great rudder when held fully down by an effective hold down system. If you have that rudder, emulating the hold down as seen in the picture is a very good system and the boat will enjoy a very effective rudder.

It is an absolute must to hold the rudder from positioning aft even a slight amount. In fact, the rudder head in the picture was modified to allow the rudder to position slightly more forward than stock to better its balance thus reducing helm effort. The outline for doing that mod is also on my site where the picture above was found but I don't recommend it as I used to because of the struggle now to get the screws out of the rudder head to disassemble to make the mod.

The quest to tame the helm of the C250 requires some effort and most of it with the rudder, some with the wheel steering if that is what you have but the end results sure are sweet.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 08/24/2014 05:18:23

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2014 : 05:34:24

Covering the other topic in this thread, regarding the center board. Catalina also had some design shortcomings with the center board. It is positioned slightly too far forward for proper boat balance. I noted to Catalina that better balance was obtained by raking the board aft some. Models beginning in 1997 (IIRC but don't hold me to it) were modified with a stopping block in the center board trunk to properly position the board.

C250 owners who don't have that mod, can pull the board up some from the fully down position until they find a sweet point then use a marking pen, draw a line around the center board lifting line and cleat it at that position hence-after.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2014 : 05:50:06

The last item to comment on in this thread is weather helm which gets too technical for a short discussion, especially with the C250 that has issues that many other sailboats don't.

This post then is to simply say, weather helm and rudder balance are two different animals. Sometimes the temptation is to relegate excessive strain at the helm as a weather helm issue. While helm strain is tied to weather helm, rudder balance and grip (the effectiveness of the rudder) are best viewed as separate critters.

Lastly... when first getting acquainted with the c250, it was obvious that it needed some taming. I started the effort by looking for a problem with one of its systems and was frustrated. That approach was wrongheaded as there were issues with several of the systems. Only after addressing each individually did success come.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 08/24/2014 05:51:49

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2014 : 09:06:05

quote:
Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart

...weather helm and rudder balance are two different animals. Sometimes the temptation is to relegate excessive strain at the helm as a weather helm issue. While helm strain is tied to weather helm, rudder balance and grip (the effectiveness of the rudder) are best viewed as separate critters.

Very true, and an important distinction. Moderate weather helm is useful both for performance and for safety, as with a dead-man's throttle. (Let go and the boat stops.) It is measured in the degrees off center the tiller must be held to maintain course--not by the effort to hold it there. The effort is a function of rudder balance--the position of its center of force relative to its pivot line (the imaginary line downward through the pintles). A "balanced" rudder has some area (commonly about 15%) forward of that line, below the transom. It's literally power steering--forces on the blade balancing each other, although not so much as to lose the safety feature. The degrees of weather helm don't change--just the effort to keep it there.

When a kick-up rudder is partially up, the center of force moves way back behind the pivot line, increasing the leverage of that force. Meanwhile, as the blade gets closer to the surface, it's effectiveness lessens and turbulence increases, especially when heeling.

Arlyn achieved some balance by allowing the kick-up rudder to swing slightly forward of vertical, putting a small amount of its area forward of the pivot line. I did the same thing years ago with our Daysailer. For our C-25, I bought a fixed-blade balanced rudder. It was wonderful!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/24/2014 09:15:21

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2014 : 22:06:50

Hi Dave,

Really nice was my Hobie 18 kick up rudders... they had adjustment stop screws to dial in the rake (balance).

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 12:54:38

The original rudder on our C-22 was a kick-up rudder with the metal plates on each side as in the pic above. My brother drilled a 1/4" hole through the plates ad rudder below the compression handle and originally inserted a long 1/4" pull pin. After hitting an underwater object (rock, tree stump?) hard enough to bend the pull pin so we almost could not get it out, we replaced the pin with a 1/4" wood dowel and kept several spares in the cabin on the shelf. It worked great. The wood dowel acted as a shear pin and was easy to replace. Make them so they stick out about 3/4" on each side, rather than flush, so you have some material to grip with pliers.

Edited by - on

watson45
Deckhand

Members Avatar

Afghanistan
1 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2014 : 23:30:11

Edited by - on

sreidvt
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2014 : 05:28:49

Responding to the original post (since the one just above seems to be a quote)…
For what it is worth, I've experienced that (poor steering with no jib) with a lot of sloops. My Mirage 5.5 (20' sloop) is the same way and so was a Com-Pac 16 I sailed with recently. I seem to remember the Flying Scott is the same way but its been a long time since I sailed one. I'm no expert but I think a lot of sloops need some effort coming from ahead of the mast to steer and point well. Are there many sloops that sail well on just the main?

Edited by - sreidvt on 10/09/2014 05:31:32

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.