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Reality
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2014 : 17:49:54

Ok, so the hull speed on a C25 is 6.3 knots... Or somewhere there abouts. Why then is there a tall rig and a standard rig? Either rig will get you to hull speed... Is one better in light wind?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2014 : 18:24:06

I have always read (and I read it here) that tall rigs were developed for the inland lake sailor where there may not be as much wind.

I have fun frustrating standard rig C25s on our lake that don't know tall rigs even exist. They start adjusting their sails as we catch up and pass them.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2014 : 18:55:58

Hull speed isn't the maximum possible speed for a displacement sailboat. It is the maximum speed that it can go without driving up over it's own bow wave. If a boat can drive up over it's bow wave and plane, then it can exceed hull speed.

A tall rig has certain advantages over a standard rig. It's greater sail area permits it to accelerate faster than a standard rig, it generates more power, which allows it to sail faster in lighter winds, and it can potentially get on a plane somewhat more easily than a standard rig, especially when sailing off the wind. However, it also has drawbacks. It becomes overpowered in less wind than a standard rig, and must be reefed earlier, especially when sailing closehauled.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 08/18/2014 : 19:28:32

quote:
Originally posted by Reality

Ok, so the hull speed on a C25 is 6.3 knots... Or somewhere there abouts. Why then is there a tall rig and a standard rig? Either rig will get you to hull speed... Is one better in light wind?

STD Rig - Bay/Ocean areas with stronger average winds
Tall rig - Inland lakes or areas with lighter average winds

A STD Rig would have a harder time reaching hull speed if it were sailed on an inland lake:

Less wind/less sail area = less speed
Less wind/more sail area = more speed

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2014 : 19:33:33

Why would lakes have low wind? I believe the TR was designed in the San Diego area, I would guess SoCal and Florida to be the doldrum capitols.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2014 : 20:03:07

Less wind, not necessarily low wind. It was just a general statement.

Not all lakes have low/less wind but many have tall trees or hills that reduce the wind. Plus the land creates drag on it's own reducing the wind.

There is also not a land/sea temperature differential like you get on the coast that creates wind. Most coastlines have much larger expanses of open water with little to no obstructions to reduce the wind and there is less friction over water.

When I was looking for my boat I visited 4 - 5 inland lakes several times in Texas and all had many more tall rigs than std rigs (probably 10 to 1). In contrast I almost never see a tall rig on the bay.

Just my opinion for what it's worth!

Edited by - GaryB on 08/18/2014 20:05:35

Voyager
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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2014 : 10:15:41

Who around this forum has gotten their C25 up on plane? I must be missing something because I've never exceeded 5.8kts through the water (not VMG) in Passage. I've planed in my centerboard Sunbird and Zuma, but never in the C-25. Maybe I'll try going out in the next hurricane ;)

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dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2014 : 11:12:37

got mine to 6.1 in 22 knots apparent single reef and reefed headsail on broad reach with following sea. also I think the knotmeter is slow by .2 when compared to gps in slack water.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2014 : 12:14:09

I had my C22 on a plane, and last year I had a friend's Cal 25 on a plane. I had my C&C 35 get up on a plane and stay on it continuously for about 2 1/2 or 3 hours. It either takes alot of wind on a beam or broad reach to do it, or big waves. In the latter case, you only plane briefly, while sliding down the face of a wave. I don't remember having my C25 on a plane, but that's just because I never had the right conditions to do it. I don't doubt that C25s will do it.

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2014 : 12:44:51

I think of surfing and being on a plane as different things, but they are both a lot of fun. You can get a C25 surfing, but it would be almost impossible to get it up on a sustained plane. Planing 25' keelboats have a much flatter bottom, weigh less than the C25, and have much more sail area for their displacement. Look at a J/80 for comparison: the sail area is larger than the C25 sail area, displacement is about 40% less, and it has a very different hull shape.

The tall rig is perfect for Seattle/Puget Sound where wind speeds are often under 10 knots. The tall rig reefed has about the same sail area as the standard rig. That extra sail area is very helpful in light winds. It does mean that you'll reef the tall rig earlier than you would reef the standard rig.

Since it is easier to reef than to create extra sail area I personally prefer the tall rig. I was glad that my Catalina 25 had one, it enabled me to sail more often than the standard rig would have.

Edited by - on

Kim Luckner
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2014 : 13:07:59

No one has touched on the difference in head sails. Since our boats are head sail driven, I'll take my 135% Genoa any day over a standard rigged TR!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2014 : 17:34:01

quote:
Originally posted by awetmore

I think of surfing and being on a plane as different things, but they are both a lot of fun. You can get a C25 surfing, but it would be almost impossible to get it up on a sustained plane.

A boat is "planing" when it drives up and over it's own bow wave. Typically, the bow of the boat is lifted out of the water and that moves the bow wave aft. It takes a great deal of power to drive most sailboats to a sufficient speed to enable it to get up on a plane. In ideal conditions, if the wind is strong enough and the wind direction is abeam or aft, and, if the water is smooth, a sailboat can generate enough raw speed to get on a sustained plane. Another way of getting on a plane, however, is if the wind is strong enough from astern, and the waves from astern are big enough, then, as the waves overtake the boat, they lift it's stern high. As the wave peaks under the boat, the boat starts to surf down the face of the wave, just like a big surfboard. It's speed suddenly increases radically, and it climbs up over it's own bow wave, and planes down the face of the wave. In both cases, the boat is planing. The difference is in the way they generate enough speed to get on a plane.

In a well-written article by Toby Heppell, he explains: "In classic surfing conditions, there is not enough wind to keep the boat continuously planing. The waves are not so big and fast that their speed can’t be matched by sailing on your boat’s fastest point of sailing (with the help of whatever kinetics are allowed by your sailing instructions: a part of your repertoire does have to be an understanding of Rule 42!). There is no doubt that the best sailing surfers are those who have tried real surfing: that’s the first recommended training process! If you want background reading, Garry Hoyt in Go for the Gold describes the processes common to surfers and surfing sailors. Just as the stern begins to lift, accelerate the boat by luffing to a reach. The bigger and faster the wave, the earlier and more extreme an angle change is required to get you boat speed close to that of the wave." http://www.yachtsandyachting.co.uk/sailing-techniques/how-to-sail-in-waves-%E2%80%93-10-tips-for-sailing-in-the-sea/

In this photo, a Laser is shown planing. As you can see, the bow wave has moved far aft, and the bow is out of the water.

My C&C 35 Landfall displaces 13,000 lbs, has a modified fin keel and a rounded bottom, and a shorter cruising rig, and I would never have expected it to get on a sustained plane, but it did. When I looked over the side, the bow wave had moved aft to the winches. I couldn't see how much of the bow was out of the water, but certainly a good deal more than normal.

I tried to post a copy of a line drawing of the C&C 35 Landfall, but it won't work, but you can click on this link.
http://sailboatdata.com/imagehelper.asp?file_id=7146

I certainly agree that a C25 would not get on a sustained plane easily, but I wouldn't discount the possibility in ideal conditions.

I almost forgot, I also crewed on an early 1970's vintage Coronado 30 that finished first in class in the Governor's Cup race about 10 years ago. We raced downwind under twin headsails, and planed for hours.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1130

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/21/2014 17:37:18

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2014 : 18:15:08

Bruce: I had Passage on plane a couple of times in 15+ kts on broad/beam reaches. Some momentary surfing may have helped, but I think it was mostly drive from the sails. The telltale sign is spray coming off both sides of the hull aft of the bow, and virtually zero heel. We did it once on our 130 alone in around 20 kts wind! It's fun--keep trying!

One downside to the tall rig on the C-25 is having the boom a foot lower. We preferred the standard for our purposes. But western Long Island Sound, like the Chesapeake, can be breathless in July/August--the time when winds on Kansas and Colorado lakes can blow your boat into the next county!

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2014 : 12:45:23

I don't think a C-25 will do a sustained 'plane.' Yeah, a little down a wave here and there, sure. But not way out of the water like that laser.

It will easily exceed hull speed. I regularly see 7 knots. Yes, it helps to have the kite up and on a beam reach, but with a clean bottom, but I have done it with the main and 110 with less than 20 degrees of heel.

We had a race once where I saw 8.6... and the crew covered the knot meter on me. Apparently I was supposed to be watching my helm...

Matt

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2014 : 16:39:02

quote:
Originally posted by Kim Luckner

No one has touched on the difference in head sails. Since our boats are head sail driven, I'll take my 135% Genoa any day over a standard rigged TR!

Most C25 TR owners probably have a genoa and the tall rig. My C25 tall had 150%, 110%, and 70% head sails plus an asymmetric spinnaker.

The TR main is 3' longer in the luff, the TR jibs are 2' longer in the luff, so a 135% on the TR is also larger than a 135% on the SR.

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